"Ghost Gunner"

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Trent

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http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...tal-semi-automatic-rifle-just-got-crazy-easy/

Eighteen months after demonstrating that he could make a 3D-printed gun, Cody Wilson announced Wednesday that his nonprofit group, Defense Distributed, has now moved on to simplifying the process of manufacturing traditional metal guns.

Defense Distributed is now selling a $1,200 computer-numerically-controlled (CNC) mill—dubbed the "Ghost Gunner"—that can complete an unfinished lower receiver for an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle as part of a limited pre-order. While designed to mill an AR-15 lower, the CNC could theoretically mill anything of a similar size.

Well, aptly named to irritate the living heck out of congresscritters.

Although .. I worry that if this issue is pushed too far, it'll cause and end to self-manufacture rights we enjoy.

I personally feel that if you are going to manufacture any type of machine, you should learn the fundamental skills required to do so.... although part of that sentiment is my own lingering disappointment with our 'instant gratification' mindset in America.
 
Agreed. While I admire what this guy is doing, and I don't think he is taking it too far, I am afraid that it will have the same backlash as those idjits in Texas carrying rifles in big-box stores.

I really really hope this doesn't provoke a reaction from the anti-gunners to prohibit self-manufacture and kill all of our 80% lowers, and 80% pistol frames.
 
There is a new House bill submitted that will mandate the serialization of all home made guns. I commented on it to my rep in the House through PopVox. I believe there is a sticky here on THR about POPVOX. Suggest everybody check it out and do what you think is best.
 
There is a new House bill submitted that will mandate the serialization of all home made guns. I commented on it to my rep in the House through PopVox. I believe there is a sticky here on THR about POPVOX. Suggest everybody check it out and do what you think is best.

I strongly dislike any government involvement in anything.

But I don't think that marking a receiver is necessarily a *bad* thing. If it's stolen at least you have a way of identifying it.

So long as you don't have to report it to anyone, or ask permission to "make" it.
 
Which is why I do mark them.

Just because something is a good idea doesn't mean there should be a law mandating it.
(Corollary to just because something is legal doesn't make it a good idea.)
 
Interesting....

How does it work if a group were to buy such a thing and each person "Hit enter" and made their own?

Otherwise it seems as though you are allowed to make a gun for your own use but not to manufacture.... if your making dozens of these....
 
Ohio Gun Guy said:
Interesting....

How does it work if a group were to buy such a thing and each person "Hit enter" and made their own?

Otherwise it seems as though you are allowed to make a gun for your own use but not to manufacture.... if your making dozens of these....
Hard to say, but here are some examples that are being discussed...

This should be good-to-go...
Ten people pool their money to buy it. So, their are ten owners of it.
Once per week/month/etc, the mill is moved to a different owners' property. While at that property, that owner uses the mill for his/her personal use and no other owner uses it.
Since, only one owner is using on his/her own property, the only manufacturing that is occurring is for personal use.

This should be a no-go...
Ten people pool their money to buy it. So, their are ten owners of it.
The mill is kept at one owners' property and is used by all the owners.
Since access to the mill is controlled by one person, then it could be considered a "build party" being hosted by the owner of the property (illegal manufacturing on the part of the owner of the property).
 
I personally feel that if you are going to manufacture any type of machine, you should learn the fundamental skills required to do so.

That is what the 3D printer gives you. Just like a lathe gives you capabilities over using hand tools to shape metal, the 3D printer gives you capabilities over a lathe.
 
There is a new House bill submitted that will mandate the serialization of all home made guns.

"Speculation" This bill passes, How many guns would be floating around with the serial number "0001"?

How, exactly would that be good?
 
There were no serial numbers required on guns before the '68 GCA. There were millions made. Gun serial numbers were something a maker used to identify which build of materials he used for future reference when the owners started feeding back with malfunctions. The cheaper makers didn't care anyway.

As for the .Gov, doing inventory on vast numbers of firearms required a unique identifier. They never owned enough of them to force using alpha characters, numbers were sufficient. By number inventory keeps Commanders off the hook and Inspector Generals happy, so that no government property considered durable/nonexpendable is stolen. It's an accounting/auditing loop to prove people aren't doing things wrong.

As far as preventing theft, plenty get stolen anyway, and letting them get into the hands of LEO's increased that risk, as thousands are now sitting in cruiser trunks and at home, which fans of illegally sourced M16's are VERY well aware of.

As most lawmakers and few citizens seem to know, putting a number on something doesn't do anything about how it is used. All the stolen guns used in crime in New York City have a serial number and it's doesn't stop crime, does it?

And scheme to limit production and impose a serial number regimen is about control, and control is often about how to get taxes out of it for revenue - look to the legalization of marijuana, the NFA, etc. Sales are thru regulated channels with accounting and auditing procedures imposed to keep people cheating the government, that's all.

Resist that as best we can, it's not about making guns legal or illegal, it's about paying Uncle Sam for the privlege. Follow the money and you find the real source of who's pushing to do things.
 
it's about paying Uncle Sam for the privlege
Bingo.
It's about the privilege to exercise your 2nd amendment rights.

There is something inherently wrong with having to pay for permission required to exercise a right..... :banghead:
 
Precisely - makers have to serial number guns to account for them, guns that are sold complete have to pay a tax. That tax is called the Pittman - Robertson Firearms tax, which converted an 11% excise tax imposed to generate revenue for conservation.

Hundreds of millions of dollars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman–Robertson_Federal_Aid_in_Wildlife_Restoration_Act

Note, the ROI figures for firearms makers were mentioned. 823 to 1588%. Supports the discussion that Glock's street price and LEO discount are hundreds of dollars apart.

Anyway, if it's a matter of someone building a Ghost Gun, then the next step won't be to stop it, per se, but tax it. If you build a gun by buying a complete lower, and complete upper, and then pin them together at the FFL when you pick it up to use as an assembly, is there some way to charge you the 11% fee? Same for a 80% machiner.

I'd worry about that more than forcing you to stamp a silly number on it. When all else fails, they go after racketeers with tax evasion. And we keep reelecting them to do it again.
 
Trent, while I respect your opinion that people should learn 'the old fashion way' instead of just printing, I'm sure back in the day people said that about doing things by hand instead of "these new machines". Technology changes and whether we like it or not, 3D printing (especially as the patent falls off the metal 3D printers this year) looks to be the way things are heading for non commercial builders.

While I agree the attention everyone is calling to this may have some backlash, I think they'll have a hard time outlawing home manufacturing, especially as we near the point where any criminal will be able to just hit print and won't care about the law. I would think they will pass laws that 'lock' these home machines software from being able to print certain things but jailbreaking them won't be difficult.

Lots of things could happen in the foreseeable future, it's both exciting and concerning.
 
Trent, while I respect your opinion that people should learn 'the old fashion way' instead of just printing, I'm sure back in the day people said that about doing things by hand instead of "these new machines". Technology changes and whether we like it or not, 3D printing (especially as the patent falls off the metal 3D printers this year) looks to be the way things are heading for non commercial builders.

Hitting a button to make something beyond our capabilities became a dream of humans recently. I'm not convinced it is a good move for our civilization. Taking this out of the context of the microcosm of "firearms", the broader angle to look at is "when machines make things beyond our understanding, we become dependent upon them to make things, as we no longer have the understanding."

The loss of knowledge is more of a causal action, than an effect, than perhaps most people realize.

20 years ago if I wanted to "understand" something (learn it) I'd pick up books, and gain a full understanding of it. Today, people just Google / Siri / etc a question and get an answer. There's no learning, no enlightenment, no path to follow. Just "I don't know" and "here's an answer."

What is lost is the method, the process to work from point A to point B, to understand the full process. It weakens us as a species. It ultimately creates a single point of failure for knowledge and skill, for a civilization.

Yes I know this is well beyond the scope of "hitting a button to make a firearm" but it is also NOT beyond that scope; the two are intertwined. We're seeing it here applied to a singular thing, but as our civilization marches ever onward we are dumbing ourselves down. Losing our understanding. Losing the path to knowledge.

I still feel that the proper course for building something isn't the quick & easy way. It's to learn a trade and execute it properly. Learn how to read prints. Learn how to use measuring tools. Learn how to turn the crank on a milling machine by hand.

Because then, you can truly make anything, and gain an understanding, and even - perhaps - improve on the process. Once you understand the process, then move on to CNC, write the program, learn the g-code, know what tools to use when, what cuts to make in what order.

Because then you can make an AR-15 receiver. Or a Ma Deuce. Just need the prints. :)

My big concern is when someone out there realizes how simplistic (and utterly *plastic*) a truly modern gun is, like a PS90 or Fs2000, and starts cranking out full auto trigger packs and receivers with the push of a button. There's not MANY metal parts in those guns. Barrel, bolt, rods, springs... most of those parts would be very simple to finish machine.

A semi-auto FS2000 is two plastic replacement parts away from being a full auto F2000. (The trigger packs are 100% plastic/polymer, excepting pivot pins). The auto sear is plastic.

AR-15's are one thing, but we're dangerously close to the ground where the NFA itself is challenged by "push button machinegun producing machines".

And THAT is a game changer.

We may all go "Hurrah! Down with the NFA!"

But there's some real bad groups out there who would love to outfit their gangs with gear like that. And once that line gets crossed, whenever it gets crossed, *all* of us will pay for it.
 
Because then you can make an AR-15 receiver. Or a Ma Deuce. Just need the prints. :)

My big concern is when someone out there realizes how simplistic (and utterly *plastic*) a truly modern gun is, like a PS90 or Fs2000, and starts cranking out full auto trigger packs and receivers with the push of a button. There's not MANY metal parts in those guns. Barrel, bolt, rods, springs... most of those parts would be very simple to finish machine.

A semi-auto FS2000 is two plastic replacement parts away from being a full auto F2000. (The trigger packs are 100% plastic/polymer, excepting pivot pins). The auto sear is plastic.

AR-15's are one thing, but we're dangerously close to the ground where the NFA itself is challenged by "push button machinegun producing machines".

And THAT is a game changer.

We may all go "Hurrah! Down with the NFA!"

But there's some real bad groups out there who would love to outfit their gangs with gear like that. And once that line gets crossed, whenever it gets crossed, *all* of us will pay for it.

While I enjoyed your rant about doing things the "old fashioned way", and sympathize with it to a degree, we as an industrial society, have moved far beyond the point where someone can learn and master all the various technologies that exist today. Should your master machinist also have to master the technology of smelting iron and making steel to build his equipment by hand?

As far as there being "real bad groups out there that who would love to outfit their gangs with gear like that". According to the gun control groups, they already are, and it is only a matter of money to do so if they now desire to.

Our borders are porous as a matter of political policy, and in practice, who is going to inspect every container that comes into this country?
I remember in the nineties, an entire container of full auto AK-47s were intercepted in the port of Los Angele's from a Chinese firm which made political donations to the Clinton Administration. That plus the fact that every Law Enforcement agency in the country has fully automatic weapons, that often ride around in the trunks of cars, makes the prohibition against full auto weapons only marginally effective. If the bad guys want one, they can get it already. there are books out there that detail how to turn semi-auto's into full auto already, and it is not that difficult for someone to do in a home workshop.

Any restriction on 3D printing or CCN machines is ultimately futile, and will require an increasingly authoritarian police state to enforce. Something we are becoming far to close to being already.
 
I have been reading the web site of Defense Distributed, and something is somewhat unclear. Can their machine take a billet of aluminum and turn into a complete lower, or can it only take a "80% complete" lower and finish it?

If it is the former, I WANT one, and not to build AR-15 lowers with either.

A CNC machine that cheap and capable, is indeed a "game changer" for the home hobbyist.
 
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