Gun with serial number defaced question

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One of my friend's grandfather died, and being that his father was locked up for child endangerment, his grandfathers widow has to deal with a ton of guns she doesn't want. I've been helping with moving them out, but I have encountered an issue that not even an FFL was able to give me a straight answer on.

One of the guns is an SVD Dragunov, full early production furnishings and all, but it has the area where the serial should be defaced, so the number is illegible.

My question is, is this gun now considered contraband which must be handed over to the ATF for destruction? Or can my friend legally keep or sell the gun. I advised him to not even fire or take it to the range till I got this figured out.

State, if it matters, is Virginia.
 
To the best of my knowledge, a gun with a serial number that has been tampered with is illegal to even possess.

I wish that weren't the case for your situation, but I believe the gun will have to be handed over.

And this would be a federal law.
 
8 US Code
§ 922(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

I'd get a lawyer involved before anything else.
 
I'd strip of every single part off it except the receiver, and then cut the receiver into molten pools of steel slag with a cutting torch.

Then sell the working parts, one by one on eBay.
For about two times what the complete working gun was worth!!!

rc
 
JohnnytheRipper said:
...is this gun now considered contraband...
Yes it is.

  1. It is a violation of federal law to possess a gun with a defaced serial number. Specifically 18 USC 922(k) provides (emphasis added):
    ....(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce....

  2. Under 18 USC 924, the penalty for possession of a gun on which the manufacturer's serial number has been removed, obliterated or altered is up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine. Also, since that is a felony, a conviction would mean a lifetime loss of gun rights.

rcmodel said:
...I'd strip of every single part off it except the receiver, and then cut the receiver into molten pools of steel slag with a cutting torch.

Then sell the working parts, one by one on eBay...
Or hire a lawyer to arrange turning the receiver into the ATF or local police (after stripping off any useable, non-regulated parts).
 
Very well! I figured this would be the unfortunate case. I just dialed my friend and let him know, he's going to sell me the parts for $400 ( everything minus the receiver/trigger ) as long as I disassemble it, and he's gonna talk to a lawyer about this. In the meantime I actually know someone who has a TIGR,, so I may have some chance to make a profit here for spare parts to him.

Thanks for the help!
 
I'll cut up the receiver free with an old-school gas cutting torch if you want to drop by sometime in the afternoon?

Or you can try to find a Pro-bono lawyer to handle it cheaper in your area?

rc
 
As the gun is now property of my friend, he's going to handle turning the receiver into the ATF. I asked him if he wanted me to do it, but he's far more capable in terms of resources and funds to do it. I plan to call my other friend who has the SVD and sell the parts to him for $800 as he is looking for spares, so I'll make a profit and keep as much of the gun on the market as possible. I've got the situation handled.
 
I might suggest that he simply hammer the receiver really well, rendering it useless, wrap it like last week's fish in lots of newspaper, and drop it in his trash can.
 
An "illegible" number is not necessarily a "removed, obliterated, or altered" number. There is probably displaced metal there that would allow the serial number to be read. Police labs do this all the time. Also, on some guns, the number is stamped in a second, hidden location on the receiver. (For example, Thompsons have the number also stamped under the grip mount, requiring the barrel to be removed for this second number to be seen.)

I would make an extra effort to read the number before doing anything else.
 
I am not familiar with that type of rifle but make sure you aren't looking at an import mark or other type of stamp
 
AlexanderA said:
An "illegible" number is not necessarily a "removed, obliterated, or altered" number. There is probably displaced metal there that would allow the serial number to be read....
What makes you think that? Can you provide any legal authority for that statement, or did you just pull that out of the air? In fact, for the purposes of 18 USC 922(k) you're flat wrong.

Certainly the courts don't agree with you:

  • U.S. v. Horey, 36 F.3d 1106 (C.A.10 (Okl.), 1993), at 1106:
    ...We turn to defendant's argument that his conviction for violating 18 U.S.C. 922(k) was also based on insufficient evidence. Defendant argues the government failed to sufficiently show that the revolver's serial number was removed, obliterated, or altered. He asserts the statute does not reach serial numbers that are still readable.

    Police officers testified that the serial number was obliterated. In addition, an expert in firearms and tool mark examination testified the revolver's serial number was partially obscured or obliterated. The examiner also noted that it was possible one or two additional serial numbers were completely obliterated. Based on the clear language of 922(k), we reject defendant's argument that the statute does not reach the firearm recovered by the police in this case. The evidence is sufficient to sustain the conviction, and we AFFIRM the jury's verdict....

  • U.S. v. Adams, 305 F.3d 30 (1st Cir., 2002), at 34 -- 35 (emphasis added):
    ...As for the evidence, that was clearly sufficient once it is understood that any alteration that works against legibility is enough; once again, we assume defendant's knowledge of the alteration which, in this case, can hardly be disputed. The pistol was presented to the jury. The case agent testified at trial that he could read the six digits of the serial number but with difficulty. At oral argument, Adams's counsel asked that this court examine the original pistol, and we now report the results.

    Of the original six digits, the first four have been scratched or abraded so that they are significantly more difficult to read. In the case of the first, second and fourth, about half or more of the digit has been obscured by the scratching although the original can still be made out, while the third is damaged badly enough that it could be taken as a 3 or a 5. The case agent identified it as a 5, but it is so far from a slight scratch or minor imperfection as to make concerns about the borderline academic in this case. (To complete the story, the fifth digit is completely readable but was thoroughly scratched at and only the sixth digit is unmarred.)

    Of course, judgment as to the degree of impairment was for the jury. But a reasonable jury could easily conclude that this pistol had been altered so as to make it appreciably more difficult to read the serial number. Indeed, a reasonable jury could hardly reach any other conclusion.. ...
 
Once a serial has been altered the gun is illegal plain and simple. The police use acid to try and restore the number for investigation, "not to restamp it". Only one reason to remove a serial number,and that is to prevent ownership id. The receiver needs to be turned into local PD or ATF. Be prepaired to explain how you came into possesion of the felony weapon.
 
medalguy said:
I might suggest that he simply hammer the receiver really well, rendering it useless, wrap it like last week's fish in lots of newspaper, and drop it in his trash can.
Best suggestion here - the stripped parts retain value that can be realized on one of the gun auction sites, and the receiver is thoroughly destroyed and disposed of in a manner that keeps your friend OFF federal and local law enforcement radar with no need for a Q&A answer session with a not-so-friendly BATman. (Though I might add, bandsawing or hacksawing the receiver into a couple of separate pieces before hammering makes for more thorough destruction, and drilling through the place the SN used to be obliterates the numbers beyond any hope of recovery.)
 
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