OK - got one for you - received guns via mail in error

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jmace57

jmace57

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OK - here's a weird situation.

Tonight I went to my mailbox and there was a small flat-rate box with the address of an auction house I have recently done business with - I had won a pistol in an auction about 3 weeks ago, and received the item about 10 days ago. This box was obviously heavy and had a pistol in it.

I thought "wow, I guess I won another item I was unaware of". I opened it up and there were two small revolvers inside...and a bill of sale to another person. I had certainly never bid on these items. I sent an email to the auction house, and tried to send an email to the actual purchaser, but the email address on the bill of sale was kicked back as undeliverable. No phone number shown for the purchaser.

So, here's the question. In this case, would I need to enter these revolvers into my C&R bound book? I know one, and maybe both are C&R items. Am I taking possession of these? Or should I just wait for the auction house to call and let me know what to do?

Thanks
Jim
 
That is an odd one. I can see no downside to entering them in your C&R log and you do have possession of them. Eventually the actual buyer will wonder where his guns are and it'll get sorted out. At that time you log them back out to wherever they go.
 
Anything sent to you unsolicited is yours to keep. At least that's the way it is with other things besides guns.
 
Since you have no idea how long it will take to rectify the situation, I would suggest that you do log them in. Surely can't hurt.
 
Thanks - there's no way I'll keep the items. I want to get them to the rightful owner. I will go ahead and log them into my book. (Now, if it had been a Registered Magnum...)
 
https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/investigations/mailfraud/fraudschemes/othertypes/unsolicitedfraud.aspx

If it was addressed to him, in his name, he can keep it. But most folks are nice enough to return things that were obviously accidental shipments. Doing the right thing and doing the legal thing are often not the same thing.

Many years ago, companies would do exactly what the auction houses did, except on purpose. If you used the product, whether your name was on the bill or not, you would be charged for the product. The above law nipped that in the bud. They had commercials on TV and everything.
 
Anything sent to you unsolicited is yours to keep. At least that's the way it is with other things besides guns.
Click to expand...

Really glad the neighbor who accidentally received a sentimental pair of cufflinks intended for me didn't share your view on that.
 
maxxhavoc said:
https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/investigations/mailfraud/fraudschemes/othertypes/unsolicitedfraud.aspx

If it was addressed to him, in his name, he can keep it. But most folks are nice enough to return things that were obviously accidental shipments. Doing the right thing and doing the legal thing are often not the same thing.

Many years ago, companies would do exactly what the auction houses did, except on purpose. If you used the product, whether your name was on the bill or not, you would be charged for the product. The above law nipped that in the bud. They had commercials on TV and everything.
Click to expand...
Companies still try it occasionally. I received a promotional DVD in the mail a few years ago with a letter stating that I could return it within so many weeks or keep it for a fee. When they started sending me bills for the un-returned DVD I sent them a letter quoting the same USPS policy. The bills stopped.


This does not mean that whatever the mail carrier puts in your box is automatically yours. Only if it is correctly addressed to you is it yours to keep.
 
You may try to enter make, model into the auction house's completed auctions and see if you can get some further information for contact.
When this happened to me (01 FFL) I logged them in and then logged them out when the error was sorted out and shipped. Mine involved modern firearms and therefore had to be shipped to a FFL which required a few days wait for their copy to reach me. The business that sent it to the wrong address issued a pick up with UPS and sent me a pre-paid shipping label to put on the box.
 
Companies still try it occasionally. I received a promotional DVD in the mail a few years ago with a letter stating that I could return it within so many weeks or keep it for a fee. When they started sending me bills for the un-returned DVD I sent them a letter quoting the same USPS policy. The bills stopped.
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I've done the same thing - as far as I'm concerned, unsolicited merchandise is a free gift. And the law supports this.

This does not mean that whatever the mail carrier puts in your box is automatically yours. Only if it is correctly addressed to you is it yours to keep.
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Many a time I've taken a walk up or down my street to effect proper delivery when a neighbor's mail was accidentally put in my mail box; I'd do the same with a parcel as well. (I once found a new medicine cabinet on my front porch!) It's just the right thing to do.
 
Anything sent to you unsolicited is yours to keep. At least that's the way it is with other things besides guns.
Click to expand...

I've done the same thing - as far as I'm concerned, unsolicited merchandise is a free gift. And the law supports this.
Click to expand...

Why anyone would risk picking a fight with the USPS, Federal and Local law enforcement agencies knowing full well they probably will show up on your doorstep with a search warrant and knowing they will seize all of your firearms for investigation and proper ownership while taking their own sweet time about it (thinking in terms of months even a couple of years) is over the top for me.
 
maxxhavoc https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/i...itedfraud.aspx

If it was addressed to him, in his name, he can keep it. But most folks are nice enough to return things that were obviously accidental shipments. Doing the right thing and doing the legal thing are often not the same thing.

Many years ago, companies would do exactly what the auction houses did, except on purpose. If you used the product, whether your name was on the bill or not, you would be charged for the product. The above law nipped that in the bud. They had commercials on TV and everything.
Click to expand...
Again, no he can't keep it.
If you'll read the information in the link you posted you'll realize that this USPS regulation is to stop companies from mailing you an item and then demanding payment......and THAT STUFF you can keep.

That situation doesn't apply to the OP's example because the sender isn't asking for payment.....they just misaddressed the box.
 
dogtown tom said:
Again, no he can't keep it.
If you'll read the information in the link you posted you'll realize that this USPS regulation is to stop companies from mailing you an item and then demanding payment......and THAT STUFF you can keep.

That situation doesn't apply to the OP's example because the sender isn't asking for payment.....they just misaddressed the box.
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The package containing two pistols would be "unordered merchandise" as defined by 39 USC 3009

36 USC 3009 Mailing of Unordered Merchandise said:
For the purposes of this section, “unordered merchandise” means merchandise mailed without the prior expressed request or consent of the recipient.
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The original purchaser of the handguns has paid for merchandise and the auction house is responsible for either delivering it to him as advertised or refunding his money. This is the responsiblity of the auction house, not the person who received the items in error.




Now for the better question:
What if the OP did not have a C&R FFL? What if Dude Bro on the Jersey Shore walks to his mailbox one day and finds a package containing two handguns has been delivered without his request or consent?
 
Quite enough garbage about unsolicited merchandise. The fact is that what the OP received was not CDs or a t-shirt. He received handguns, and the shipping, receipt, and possession of handguns is highly regulated under federal and state law.

The laws relating to unsolicited merchandise are irrelevant, and the next person who posts about unsolicited merchandise will not be happy.

In this situation, the OP apparently is an 03FFL, and apparently the handguns are C&R. If so, he might have the legal option of entering the pistols in his bound book and holding on to them until he can sort things out with the auction house.

If he doesn't have that option, and if the handguns were shipped across state-lines, the OP would be committing a federal crime (violation of 18 USC 922(a)(3)) if he keeps them. In that case, the only thing I see that he could legally do is arrange to turn them into the authorities.
 
Log them because your an FFL.

Return to auction house or find the owner.

Probably someones Christm....holiday presents.

Gotta keep it PC.
 
18 USC 922(a)(3))
§922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

Frank,

The way I read the above is the OP would NOT have committed an unlawful act since he was not a party to the transaction (the bold section is the key); he received them as the result of someone else's error.

mbogo
 
mbogo said:
....The way I read the above is the OP would NOT have committed an unlawful act since he was not a party to the transaction (the bold section is the key); he received them as the result of someone else's error....
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How you read the statute is irrelevant. What matters is how a court is likely to read the statute. There's nothing in the statute that necessarily requires the recipient of the gun be a party to any transaction. Unless you can cite some case law to the contrary, a court can easily read "or otherwise obtained" broadly enough to cover the OP's situation.
 
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So, in your mind, a person can 'violate' that provision of the law through no fault or action on their part?

A hostile party can send you a firearm and ensnare you in a Kafkae-esque legal nightmare?

Do you have any citations to back up your premise?

mbogo
 
Keeping the gun is a "action" on their part. As far as being "ensnared" by a hostile party the answer is yes depending on your actions. Keeping the gun and choosing not to tell anyone about it could convince a jury of your intention to commit fraud or theft.

If I was the O.P. I would create as much paper trail as possible by;

1. Logging the guns into my C&R book
2. Sending email(s) to the sending party (auction house) notifying them of their error

I would not make any telephone calls. If I did I would immediately follow-up with a email to the auction house about what our conversation was. Written records such as the C&R Log and emails will clearly establish the O.P.'s actions and efforts to resolve the problem. Telephone conversations, unless recorded, are useless as evidence.

Having worked for the Government for over 20 years I believe in a paper trail to cya.
 
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If you read the OP's post clearly, there was a bill of sale enclosed. There is no way that anyone can keep that package and the contents if it is not theirs. It is not miscellaneous delivered mail.

Just the thought of you "upstanding" people who would consider keeping something like this makes my skin crawl and surely makes my thoughts of some gun owners as being thoughtful, respectful, and honest, not so great.
 
mbogo said:
So, in your mind, a person can 'violate' that provision of the law through no fault or action on their part?

A hostile party can send you a firearm and ensnare you in a Kafkae-esque legal nightmare?

Do you have any citations to back up your premise?
Click to expand...
I have the language of the statute and over thirty years experience earning my living paying attention to, understanding, and anticipating how courts deal with things. You don't.

But how a federal prosecutor and court would deal with the issue of someone in the OP's position will depend a great deal on what the guy who gets the unexpected gun in the mail does with it. If he immediately makes arrangements to turn it into the police, a federal prosecutor will almost certainly not be inclined to pursue matters (although the prosecutor might get very interested in whoever shipped the gun).

If however, the recipient keeps the gun, like some folks have been suggesting he could, and if the gun crossed state lines, the "or otherwise obtained" language of the statute would give a federal prosecutor, and a judge, a pretty useful tool to make the recipient's life extremely miserable.

If the gun crossed state lines the OP obtained the gun from outside his State of residence. So under the plain language of the statute the OP would be in violation.

Of course if the gun did not cross state lines we have the issue of state laws, but since we don't know that the gun did not cross state lines we can't really address that question.
 
Well Now said:
If you read the OP's post clearly, there was a bill of sale enclosed. There is no way that anyone can keep that package and the contents if it is not theirs. It is not miscellaneous delivered mail....
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Good catch, and I'm glad you pointed that out. Clearly the guns don't belong to the OP, and they are clearly someone else's property.

One who intentionally deprives the owner of the possession of personal property commits the tort of conversion and will be civilly liable to the owner of the property:
conversion

n. a civil wrong (tort) in which one converts another's property to his/her own use, which is a fancy way of saying "steals." Conversion includes treating another's goods as one's own, holding onto such property which accidentally comes into the convertor's (taker's) hands, or purposely giving the impression the assets belong to him/her. This gives the true owner the right to sue for his/her own property or the value and loss of use of it, as well as going to law enforcement authorities since conversion usually includes the crime of theft.
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If, as was mentioned, the package is incorrectly addressed, but contains correct (and different) information as to the proper destination, you likely should be prepared to try to notify the sender (or maybe the correct recipient?)

When the wife and I moved in 2009, we retained ownership of our old house for about a year while cleaning it up for sale. I ordered something from a supplier (non-firearm item - I'm not an FFL), and noticed that it had not shown up. Before I could call the supplier and complain, I happened to be over at the old house, and the package in question was on the front porch. Their shipping folks didn't bother to change the "Ship To" information on the separate UPS-provided computer system that generated the labels.

Essentially the same thing happened a couple months after we finally sold the place, and the new owner called me....

Neither item was remotely connected with firearms, but both would have been cases where the proper recipient may have been available to the folks at our old address.

There was a house about a block away that had the same house number, with a similar street name. We shared a lot of mail, including some stuff that turned up after the other folks returned from a vacation. A small quantity of ammunition vanished on it's way to me - possibly for the same reason. The supplier said they'd trace the shipment, and send me a replacement. Never happened....

Some 40 years ago, a computer maintenance contract got a field service type sent to my former day job. His folks told him "Smith Rd." instead of "Smith St." The former being in a very bad area, and no place for a large industrial company. He called me from a pay phone wondering what had happened - he didn't want to go back to Cleveland without making the call. Minor directions required, but he was a good ten miles away.

Anyway, back to topic :), if you can tell where it was supposed to go, IMHO, you definitely should try to follow up. If you can't tell, you still SHOULD contact the shipper. If you can't tell who the intended recipient and the shipper are, though....

Guess one could also say that "if it's a package you would be standing by the mailbox waiting for, some due extra effort might be a very good idea."

Regards,
 
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Jeez....
So many times its been suggested here to various OP'ers to "call the cops and report it stolen" that I wonder.... ahh never mind.


So, to those that have alluded to keeping it, what do you think would happen to the recipient if for some reason the serial #'s were ran and the person that had purchased the guns (and never received) had reported them stolen??

Ouch!
 
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