Feasibility of upgrading gun.

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LRShooting

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I have a Savage M11 Trophy Hunter XP in .308. Its a cheap gun ($400ish), but was my only option at the time due to being under 18 and having a parent who does not support my shooting adventures, and would not sign for a more expensive one even though I pay for it. :uhoh: Now, I would like to upgrade my gun...a lot. I mean 1000 yard capable to plink with and while not competition grade, I would like to be able to have a lot of fun and show off. Maybe do some long range (>400 yards) varmit popping on ground hogs and other small critters that shot placement does not matter as much. Weight is not a consideration here by the way. I seem to be more accurate on freehand shots with a heavier gun than I do a lighter gun. I suppose because I am a tight wound person and the gun tends to "Hop" if it is too light. I usually like to stick heavier bipods in the front to offset this a little. When long range shooting, I am on a bipod anyways and weight wont matter.

I have created a list of options, but is it worth it? Or would I be better off buying a new gun? I have all the reloading equipment, supplies, and other things in .308, so I would like to stick to that caliber and not switch. I can do simple gunsmithing such as polishing triggers, setting travel distance, filing, ETC, ETC and still have a safe, but accurate gun. I enjoy glass embedding and fixing the common one piece scope base torquing problem as well. Either way, my question is will these parts fit well together, and am I better off just getting a new gun to get the same accuracy?

Shilen Chrome Moly Match Varmit Contour $345

Savage Bottom Metal $168

Boyds Pro Varmit Stock (I know I am going cheap here...but things can be done to make these things worth a lot more than they cost if you like working with tools such as adding carbon rod stiffeners in the forestock, making adjustable combs, etc.) $99

Barrel Nut $12.50 (To replace smooth nut)

Go No Go Gauge $67.00

Other tools...I have basically anything and everything I need (I.E. routers, chisels, grinders, punches, torque wrenches)

TPS XP Tactical 20 MOA Steel Base $69.99

Scope: Havent Decided..<$350

Id start with stock and bottom metal first, then barrel, gauge, and barrel nut, and eventually get base and scope so that I can break it down into manageable chunks.
 
What size groups do you shoot benched with what you have? Need to see where you are starting from regarding accuracy.
 
How often do you shoot?
Do you have access to a 1000 yd range?
As asked above, what are the rifle's current capabilities?

Invest in ammo and practice. Then you will be able to maximize the rifle's full potential as it sits. When the time comes for upgrades, you will then be able to maximize the rifle's full potential with the modifications.

Im pretty sure I would barely be able to hit a buffalo sized target at 1000 yds. Im a pretty fair shot at 100 though.
 
Practice will likely do more for your shooting than new parts, especially given Savage's tendency toward making highly accurate rifles, even their cheaper ones. Personally, here's what I would do. Start a weekly savings plan, put half of what you are able to save towards upgrades, and the other half towards ammo. Shoot while saving up. Upgrade your scope first, perhaps to something like a SWFA Super Sniper scope. You'll likely be surprised at how much a good scope will improve your groups. I personally love my fixed power 6X SS scope.

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-6x42-Tactical-Riflescope-P53711.aspx

From there, continue to save and shoot until you can afford a new rifle. One good option would be a Savage 10 Precision, which buds has for under $800 (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...974/products_id/78075/Savage+10+PRECISION+308). A few extra bucks for a decent scope mount, and you're further ahead than you would be if you'd upgraded your current rifle. PLUS, you'll still have your lightweight rifle if you want to go deer hunting.
 
As a general reply to your alls suggestions, thank you. I am currently working on finding my max and minimum loads, ladder testing, land depth tuning, charge tuning, and I hope to ultimately be fairly accurate. I am currently shooting 3 inch groups consistently at 100 yards no matter what I do, who shoots it, or if its in a vice. Ive had them shrunk to 1.5, but still no good. I was using w748 behind 155 gr SMKs at the time and I believe its not a very good powder for my current setup. I have now switched to h4896 and 168 gr AMAX. I have used the suggested starting load, but I start getting signs of flattened primers at 42.5. Its right on the edge, so i might try a 43 or 43.5 and see how it reacts before I really start doing any ladder testing. Also, I might need to check my land seating depth first so I have better consistency in my testing.

Ill take your alls suggestions and try to just do more shooting and load development for my paticular rifle. I may still get a stock and bottom metal tho just because I like the feel of those tactical stocks better and I would like to be able to get 10 rd AICS mags. Savage mags are expensive for what you get. I got a savage because they are notorious for being accurate, but I am an accuracy nut and could spend all sorts of money on upgrades. Like mentioned though, I am in agreeance with you all that If i milk out the potential accuracy in my current setup, I wouldnt be that much better off with upgrading.
 
Investing that extra money in ammo, and learning to shoot the gun accurately "as is" will pay much bigger dividends in the end than some new gadgets or parts. Upgrading a weapon to the point its capable to shooting tiny groups at long ranges means NOHTING if the shooter doesn't first have the basics MASTERED. Savages are known t be accurate rifles as is. If its not shooting "properly" now, have a well-experienced shooter take a few shots, and see if they are having similar issues. Honestly, especially with new shooters, the gun is already capable of far greater accuracy than you are. New stocks and barrels, bi pods and scopes are pointless investments until you are willing to simply put the number of shots downrange necessary to master proficiency of your rifle. At this pont in your life, rangetime will pay the biggest dividends in improvig one's accuracy, not investing in new toys. I realize this isn't what you asked necessary, and I apologize for that, but in realithy, I think this is what you NEED to hear. Your "cheap" rifle is most likely already capable of greater accuracy than you can possibly achieve at the present time
 
First..I would like to applaud you, as a young person, for your love of Marksmanship and Firearms! Our country needs more like you! I will have to agree with most of the above..at this point in your career spend that money shooting more..putting a bunch of money into an average rifle never ends well..
 
Now that I look closer at your list..I don't see any bad purchases there..A good scope can always be transferred to another rifle and the rest of your wish list doesn't add up to a ton..
 
Do you have a friend who has a sub MOA rifle you can try? At this point it sounds like others have the same accuracy results as you so I'd check a known rifle against your abilities then move from there.
 
For starters you need to get your groups 1/2" or smaller at 100 yds. It may take a while to find a load that will perform that well. Unless you can get your groups that small it is a waste of time and money to shoot long range.

It is possible to get 1/2" groups from a production rifle. My Ruger .270 does with Jack O'Conner pet load.
 
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"...to your alls..." You're going to get the Texicans upset. It's Y'all. Plural and singular. snicker.
I wouldn't spend a nickel I didn't have on a bunch of stuff. Maybe for a barrel, but I'd work on ammo and general shooting skills first. Any NRA clubs near you? That you can get to? That'd be the best place for you.
"...start getting signs of flattened primers at 42.5..." Something isn't right. That's a full grain under max. How are you weighing and throwing the charges?
Anyway, you need to work up the load from the Starting load, not just pick a starting place and hope. Suggest you use IMR4064 and 2.8" as the OAL. IMR4064 is one of the 'go to' powders for .308 match ammo. Far more consistent than either 4895.
Forget the 'off the lands' stuff until you have a load. Adjusting the OAL is a load tweaking technique that may or may not matter. Some rifles just don't care.
The ladder test doesn't tell you a lot about accuracy. It tells you where a particular load shoots, but not if the rifle shoots it well. No load testing off a bipod either. None of 'em are stable enough. Sand bags(cheap to make yourself and fill with kitty litter or range sand) under the forestock.
You also need to remember that a Savage M11 is a hunting rifle, not a target rifle. It may not be capable of MOA groups. A consistent 3" isn't as horrible as you may think. Consistency being critical.
What scope is on it now? Savage currently ships with a Nikon. Unlike the 'old days' when they shipped the cheapest low end scope they could, Nikons are decent scopes.
What's the trigger pull at now? No more or less than 4 pounds will do nicely. Smooth is far more important than light though.
 
Sunray said:
"...to your alls..." You're going to get the Texicans upset. It's Y'all. Plural and singular. snicker.
I wouldn't spend a nickel I didn't have on a bunch of stuff. Maybe for a barrel, but I'd work on ammo and general shooting skills first. Any NRA clubs near you? That you can get to? That'd be the best place for you.
"...start getting signs of flattened primers at 42.5..." Something isn't right. That's a full grain under max. How are you weighing and throwing the charges?
Anyway, you need to work up the load from the Starting load, not just pick a starting place and hope. Suggest you use IMR4064 and 2.8" as the OAL. IMR4064 is one of the 'go to' powders for .308 match ammo. Far more consistent than either 4895.
Forget the 'off the lands' stuff until you have a load. Adjusting the OAL is a load tweaking technique that may or may not matter. Some rifles just don't care.
The ladder test doesn't tell you a lot about accuracy. It tells you where a particular load shoots, but not if the rifle shoots it well. No load testing off a bipod either. None of 'em are stable enough. Sand bags(cheap to make yourself and fill with kitty litter or range sand) under the forestock.
You also need to remember that a Savage M11 is a hunting rifle, not a target rifle. It may not be capable of MOA groups. A consistent 3" isn't as horrible as you may think. Consistency being critical.
What scope is on it now? Savage currently ships with a Nikon. Unlike the 'old days' when they shipped the cheapest low end scope they could, Nikons are decent scopes.
What's the trigger pull at now? No more or less than 4 pounds will do nicely. Smooth is far more important than light though.
Click to expand...
Using Nikon BDC that came with gun and trigger pull is at minimum savage general purpose accutrigger can go. Ive heard target triggers go lower <1lb.

I am learning, but from what I have obtained so far, ladder testing allows me to find the niches in of powder laods that the gun will shoot consistently. It basically gives me accuracy nodes, usually two and from my experience two. One is higher, one is lower. You pick the node with the least vertical spread and then start working on refining the powder load even further. Now this is just what I understand. I have not been at this indepth stuff very long.
I got 4895 because its what is available at a store 1.5 hrs away without paying double for hazmat. Even then, 4064 and varget are hard to find still. I am working up from 38 gr, so I don't know if I misstated or not.
I live on a farm >1000 acres so I have plenty of shooting room. Not really any ranges around and I don't wanna spend much money. Still paying for college expenses (food, gas, etc), scholarships took care of tuition.
I shoot off bags when actually shooting for accuracy. I stick bipods on front for weight. I don't know why, but I hold steadier than I do with a lighter rifle. Something to push against I guess.

Sorry about the you all...:), Im from Northern Missouri. I say Y'all in person, but school composition and English got the better of me and as such affected my writing.
 
BSA1 said:
For starters you need to get your groups 1/2" or smaller at 100 yds. It may take a while to find a load that will perform that well. Unless you can get your groups that small it is a waste of time and money to shoot long range.

It is possible to get 1/2" groups from a production rifle. My Ruger .270 does with Jack O'Conner pet load.
Click to expand...
Which is why im trying to get my groups that small. Im starting at 100, but hope to get to 1000 and be able to place shots on steel at least. Maybe the gun is not capable, maybe it is. As some others said, I believe that the gun usually is not the weak point in accuracy without something majorly being wrong.
 
Sunray said:
"...to your alls..." You're going to get the Texicans upset. It's Y'all. Plural and singular. snicker.
I wouldn't spend a nickel I didn't have on a bunch of stuff. Maybe for a barrel, but I'd work on ammo and general shooting skills first. Any NRA clubs near you? That you can get to? That'd be the best place for you.
"...start getting signs of flattened primers at 42.5..." Something isn't right. That's a full grain under max. How are you weighing and throwing the charges?
Anyway, you need to work up the load from the Starting load, not just pick a starting place and hope. Suggest you use IMR4064 and 2.8" as the OAL. IMR4064 is one of the 'go to' powders for .308 match ammo. Far more consistent than either 4895.
Forget the 'off the lands' stuff until you have a load. Adjusting the OAL is a load tweaking technique that may or may not matter. Some rifles just don't care.
The ladder test doesn't tell you a lot about accuracy. It tells you where a particular load shoots, but not if the rifle shoots it well. No load testing off a bipod either. None of 'em are stable enough. Sand bags(cheap to make yourself and fill with kitty litter or range sand) under the forestock.
You also need to remember that a Savage M11 is a hunting rifle, not a target rifle. It may not be capable of MOA groups. A consistent 3" isn't as horrible as you may think. Consistency being critical.
What scope is on it now? Savage currently ships with a Nikon. Unlike the 'old days' when they shipped the cheapest low end scope they could, Nikons are decent scopes.
What's the trigger pull at now? No more or less than 4 pounds will do nicely. Smooth is far more important than light though.
Click to expand...
Oh, and at 42.5 gr, I wasn't getting much, I just noticed that the firing pin hole was slightly pushed out around the edges and the very very edge of the primer was slightly squared. Not really considered pressure signs, but who knows. 45.5 is max with 155 gr according to Hogdon. Heavier bullets increase pressure some so Im guessing 43.5 is max charge?
 
X-Rap said:
Do you have a friend who has a sub MOA rifle you can try? At this point it sounds like others have the same accuracy results as you so I'd check a known rifle against your abilities then move from there.
Click to expand...
No, not at the moment. Id like to though, but I tell you what. I have a spring powered airrifle that has to be held extremely delicately or it wont shoot for crap at close range. I can hit 2 inch groups at 70 yards. Not bad for ~800 fps, 16 gr pellets, and 120 scoped combo gun. I usually keyhole 22 groups at 40-50 yds. So I guess what I am saying is that surely my deer rifle would not be shooting 3 inch groups if It was me. I would figure at least 1-2. My 223 will almost key hole using black hills remanufactured ballistic tip.
 
skidooman603 said:
I am assuming you mean 4895..I have used 42 gr of 4895 behind 168's in my M1A forever out to 600 yds with great success..
Click to expand...
Yes, that was a typo. 4895 is the only thing available right now. Im gonna see how it performs and then Ill either get more or get 4064
 
skidooman603 said:
First..I would like to applaud you, as a young person, for your love of Marksmanship and Firearms! Our country needs more like you! I will have to agree with most of the above..at this point in your career spend that money shooting more..putting a bunch of money into an average rifle never ends well..
Click to expand...
Sounds good to me, as I mentioned though, Id like to have a thicker, stiffer stock and bottom metal anyways. I have to have a DBM for boyd stocks anyways, and it would allow me to put 10 rd AICS mags in. Eventually, I might get the barrel and stuff, but otherwise I am still learning and would rather take the suggestions, shoot more, and go from there. Saves me money anyway. I am a pretty avid deer hunter, so I shoot a lot during season and accuracy is adequate for that, but I want to get more so than I am now.
 
"varmit popping on ground hogs and other small critters that shot placement does not matter as much"
____________________________________________________________

Congratulations on your interest in shooting, it will be a lifetime adventure getting everything to your liking.

It sounds like you haven't had much instruction in the sportsmanship aspect of hunting, whether for varmints or big game. A one-shot kill is always the goal, no matter what size the animal. It's not attainable by anyone who hunts a lot, but should always be the goal.

Good luck to you, I'm a little envious of he great time you'll have experimenting and learning. Wish I had a place to shoot like you do.
 
have you tried fed gold medal match 168gr factory ammo? that seems to be the standard for a quick check of the rifle's capability. some argue that it's the most accurate factory load for .308 in most rifles.

i would try shooting FGMM, and see how your rifle does. i would also recommend getting some varget when you get a chance. with a very basic load of 44gr and sierra matchking 168gr in once fired brass at 2.80 coal, it pretty much mimics the fgmm and consistently produces ~.5 moa (5 shots) at 100yds from my stock 700p. no fidling with measuring off the lands or anything else needed.

also, being that it is a sporter weight bbl, be sure and give it ample time to cool between shots when shooting for groups.

do you shoot .22lr? plenty of practice with .22lr is a great way to save money on ammo while really honing your fundamentals.
 
"varmit popping on ground hogs and other small critters that shot placement does not matter as much"
____________________________________________________________

Congratulations on your interest in shooting, it will be a lifetime adventure getting everything to your liking.

It sounds like you haven't had much instruction in the sportsmanship aspect of hunting, whether for varmints or big game. A one-shot kill is always the goal, no matter what size the animal. It's not attainable by anyone who hunts a lot, but should always be the goal.

Good luck to you, I'm a little envious of he great time you'll have experimenting and learning. Wish I had a place to shoot like you do.
Click to expand...
I understand that as a sportsman, it is always the goal to have the most effective and humane kill possible. That being said, that statement leaves to much out to be assumed and what I meant was that when given a target from basically the chest up to the head, any shot from a .308 and rapid expanding bullets will be much more adequate than a 22 lr. I guess that statement really meant, "varmit popping on ground hogs and other small critters that shot placement does not matter as much when compared to deer where the shot placement is extremely critical or you end up with a mortality wounded deer than can go for miles (IE gut shot, upper leg shots, some neck shots, mouth shots, etc.)"
 
back40 said:
have you tried fed gold medal match 168gr factory ammo? that seems to be the standard for a quick check of the rifle's capability. some argue that it's the most accurate factory load for .308 in most rifles.

i would try shooting FGMM, and see how your rifle does. i would also recommend getting some varget when you get a chance. with a very basic load of 44gr and sierra matchking 168gr in once fired brass at 2.80 coal, it pretty much mimics the fgmm and consistently produces ~.5 moa (5 shots) at 100yds from my stock 700p. no fidling with measuring off the lands or anything else needed.

also, being that it is a sporter weight bbl, be sure and give it ample time to cool between shots when shooting for groups.

do you shoot .22lr? plenty of practice with .22lr is a great way to save money on ammo while really honing your fundamentals.
Click to expand...
Yes, or I use to atleast. 22 ammo has been irreplaceable since sandy hook shooting and I usually only get it when I get lucky and catch a place like cabelas in stock for a couple hours. I could get the more expensive stuff, but I have that springer pellet gun that is similar to a 22, but much more finicky and has noticeable improved my shooting in the few months that Ive had it.
 
IMO, you choose the right platform to start your shooting hobby. I've owned a lot of different firearms in the last 20 years and will tell you that Savage is my favorite action.

The Savage action is not as refined as other aftermarket (IE Tikka/Sako), but it's a great starting point. The best part about buying a Savage is that you can do all or most of the work yourself. Which, saves you time and money and you get the self satisfaction knowing you did the work yourself each time you look or shoot your rifle.

I sold my 308 Savage last year...it was a hammer and the most accurate rifle I've ever owned. There wasn't much stock OEM parts left on that rifle. That Shilen select match barrel I had on it was lights out.

I was using Varget 44gr and 178gr Hornady Amax. If you want to shoot "long range" I would suggest thinking about going with 175/178gr bullets. Many use 168gr and that's fine for short range 500 yards and less, but once you go beyond 600 yards, you will notice that 308 will drop significantly and the 175/178gr bullets take over.

Don't rule out EGW for your base. I only use EGW bases because they offer quality parts at reasonable prices. You just missed out on their 10% discount for black friday. I always buy 20MOA bases to give you more adjustment on your optic.

I would recommend that you pass on the DBM until you can afford a better stock. The Boyd's is alright, but if you want a good stock, you are looking at Manners or a chassis system and that's some serious bucks.

You also don't need to purchase both GO/NO GO gauges. You can get away with just buying the GO gauge and using tape to make the NO GO gauge.

Heck, I'll loan you my GO/NO GO gauge since you are a college student on a budget. I'll even loan you my nut wrench and action vice too. That way you can save the money for college. Just please take care of my items and return them to me in same condition. If you are interested, PM me your info.

Not trying to change your mind, but if this was my project, I'd start with something other than 308. The 308 is great for a starter rifle, but since you mentioned that you reload, I'd recommend going with a 260 Remington. You will get much better performance.
 
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