reliability of safeties in the woods

I always stalk with no round in the chamber. It is only when I am ready to shoot is when I chamber a round.

The only issue I have with the muzzle pointed up is that bullets that go up eventually come down.

Part of the preference depends on the terrain you hunt. When I am on foot, I am usually working my way through heavy brush, and It just feels better when I use my right hand to clear the mesquite and juniper away from my face and body. But then, I was taught to ride a horse with the reins in my left hand so that my right hand would be available to clear brush out of the way when busting brush or be ready to use a rope if you had to catch something out in the middle of the pasture.

FWIW, don't have a problem with loaded handguns that are dropsafe and tested as such. Have a Browning High Power that I have carried cocked and locked as well as double action revolvers etc.

That being said, many rifles and shotguns are not dropsafe. See this http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-741063.html for a discussion.
Even those that cam the firing pin/striker away can malfunction if worn, tinkered with, or broken such as some of the old milsurps with after market triggers. Only those that physically block the firing pin or cam the striker/firing pin to prevent it from contact with the cartridge head such as a transfer bar are relatively safe. Free floating firing pin designs are not dropsafe. As a little experiment, try to find out if your rifle or shotgun is accorded as dropsafe by the manufacturer--doubt that you will find that claim while you will hear handgun manufacturers make that claim.

I subscribe to the Georgia Outdoor News which covers hunting in Georgia. A reprint of their coverage of a ten year old fatal gun accident brought this forward--a guy was found dead in the woods from a .22 Magnum shot to the head just below his tree stand. What apparently happened after the investigation was that the gun apparently fell with a round chambered while the deceased was climbing up to his treestand. The gun apparently fired on impact and put a round under the deceased chin. I think the article mentioned that the safety was on as that was one of the ways that they determined it was not a suicide along with blood splatter analysis.

Winchester is providing a warning that the half cock safety may fail:





I have been increasing leery of over ridge trigger mechanisms. The typical safety is a sear blocking safety, and as you can see in the red circle, there is not a whole bunch of steel keeping the sear in engagement.


I prefer safeties that positively hold the firing pin back. I consider the M70 wing safety one of the best on a sporting rifle. It positively cams the firing pin back and holds it there. It would require firing pin breakage for the firing pin to go forward.


This Dumoulin mauser has a M70 type safety


Ruger used to have a tang mounted sear blocking safety, this later version, the wing safety positively holds the cocking piece back.



The Garand safety, as used in this M1a, is an outstanding safety. It is hard to over praise the Garand trigger mechanism, simple, robust, reliable. The hammer is positively cammed back until the safety is released. You can pull the trigger all you want, nothing will happen if the safety is engaged. Military safeties tend to be extremely robust and very hard to jar off. The Army did not want any accidental discharges while you bayoneted and butt stroked someone!

I have hunted both ways loaded with safety on, and empty chamber while slung over my shoulder. I go by terrain, but you can slip any time really..in thick brush I have rifle in my hands if not empty chamber. I'm teaching my son to hunt safely starting this year, the one thing I have drilled in his head since he was little is always treat the firearm as if it were loaded and more "unloaded" firearms have wounded/killed by accident than anything. Also that a safety is just a feel good term never trust a safety, but to use it at all times. Finger off trigger until ready to shoot he picked this up fast it really helps to teach these things to our younger hunters, having to correct bad habits is harder teaching...myself included.

Slamfire 1, you and I think alike when it comes to safeties. The Model 70 3-position safety is the standard by which all other safeties should be judged.

With lever actions, I wish Winchester would copy the Browning safety with the jointed hammer, which can be pressed forward so it bears against the receiver below the firing pin.

When these threads have popped up over the years, I can always note a sense of regionalism in the answers. While the correlation is not perfect, it seems eastern hunters are more likely to actively hunt big game with a chambered round than western hunters are. This makes sense considering the type of terrain/cover the hunters are likely to encounter in the average day. Eastern hunters often have a fraction of second to shoulder a rifle and make a good shot, while western hunters may see a deer hundreds of yards and minutes before a shot is made. This is a fairly gross generalization, but seems to reflect the difference in attitudes.

mainecoon said:

If your gun is locked and loaded with the safety on, are you good to go for walking through the woods? Assuming it is a 2-position safety and you are carrying muzzle up on the shoulder. Or should you carry some other way?

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The ONLY safety that counts is the one between your ears. Keep that one right and you won't have any other problems.

It is of my opinion the safety only exists to keep unwanted objects from getting inside the trigger guard and pulling the trigger to fire the gun.

In an ideal world, the trigger could never be pulled by anything or anyone except yourself and your trigger finger.

Someone mentioned earlier that they are generally distrustful of safeties. I agree x10. I DO NOT trust the safety. I do trust me. I follow the rules at all times.

I am a firm believer in Murphy's Law though so I do use safeties universally. If a safety is difficult to use easily then I don't own that gun. Once again, since Im a believer in Murphy's Law, I also make sure to continuously check the safety to make sure it is on. The same things that can cause a firearm to fire while the safety is off can also unknowingly turn off a safety catch.

If the rifle has a safety, I use it. If it does not (lever actions, single shots, etc.) I carry with the hammer relaxed.

HOWEVER

As others have said, engaging a safety is no substitute for muzzle awareness. There is no set answer for how to carry the rifle, as muzzle down is bad in deep snow, muzzle up is inconvenient in anything more than a light rain, fatigue sets in when carrying in the same position for hours, etc.

Use the safety if the rifle has one, but don't rely on it. Feel free to carry your rifle in any way comfortable as long as you do not point it in the direction of anything that would take offense at being accidentally shot. Be aware of conditions that may cause bore obstructions, too.

Slamfire,

Rugers model 77 tang safety is not a sear blocking safety, it is a trigger blocking safety, the least desirable type in my opinion.

My favorite safety is on the Remington 700. It is a sear blocking safety, but actually retracts the firing pin and striker rearwards by camming the sear upwards. It is very secure, like the Winchester model 70 something rather substantial would have to shear to allow firing pin to go forward, but it is easily and silently disengaged when time to make a shot without removing firing hand from grip of rifle. I have not been able to silently disengage any of the 3 position type (Winchester 70, Ruger 77MKII) without taking my hand off of grip and pinching safety between my thumb and trigger finger. I prefer the older 700 bolt locking safeties, and swap the older safeties into my newer 700s to have the bolt locking feature. Remington's 700 woes stem from a trigger defect, not a safety defect, there safety design is excellent for hunting purposes.

SlamFire1 said:

Winchester is providing a warning that the half cock safety may fail:





I have been increasing leery of over ridge trigger mechanisms. The typical safety is a sear blocking safety, and as you can see in the red circle, there is not a whole bunch of steel keeping the sear in engagement.


I prefer safeties that positively hold the firing pin back. I consider the M70 wing safety one of the best on a sporting rifle. It positively cams the firing pin back and holds it there. It would require firing pin breakage for the firing pin to go forward.


This Dumoulin mauser has a M70 type safety


Ruger used to have a tang mounted sear blocking safety, this later version, the wing safety positively holds the cocking piece back.



The Garand safety, as used in this M1a, is an outstanding safety. It is hard to over praise the Garand trigger mechanism, simple, robust, reliable. The hammer is positively cammed back until the safety is released. You can pull the trigger all you want, nothing will happen if the safety is engaged. Military safeties tend to be extremely robust and very hard to jar off. The Army did not want any accidental discharges while you bayoneted and butt stroked someone!

Click to expand...

You are exactly right on all 3 safeties. The ruger and Winchester borrowed the mauser idea of locking the firing pin as is widely known . If you take the trigger assembly out of an M1-M1A and see how it locks on safe to me it is the best where it is impossible for the hammer to fall when on safe

My favorite safety is on the Remington 700. It is a sear blocking safety, but actually retracts the firing pin and striker rearwards by camming the sear upwards. It is very secure,

Click to expand...

Recent legal adventures against Remington suggest the opposite.

My concern is that those who prefer hunting unloaded because they might trip or fall and discharge the weapon are missing a salient fact. That is, their conduct is what is unsafe, not the firearm. "I might fall down and make it go BOOM!" only seems to result in a further redundant and unnecessary reaction, to carry it unloaded.

I thought we were supposed to conduct ourselves as if the gun were loaded at all times? Hmm?

If it's unloaded, that can and will prompt some to treat it as if it is, and that attitude is what leads to negligent discharges. "I didn't know the gun was loaded!" gets a lot of grief here, why make that attitude worse by actually supporting the use of the firearm that way?

If you are uncomfortable with hunting with a round in the chamber, it goes to a lack of confidence in your ability to handle the firearm safely. That has to be practiced and learned. That is one of the skills that they teach in Basic Training.

But - these days only one in one hundred serve, and the lack of training is more than noticeable in the public today. In the 60's, one in ten had served, they were family members, you would discuss subjects with them, especially hunting, and you learned from them.

Now, not so much. All too many shun the baby killer, mind warped war vets, they might have a flashback or something. Ask them for gun advice? Not. Those guys ran thru the woods loaded, off safe, with their fingers on the trigger!

Ever do that? Hunt, safety off, finger poised for action? Slowly walking thru the woods looking for game? Some do, I have, and sometimes still do when alone.

You don't blindly stumble around at a brisk pace - you plan each step, putting your foot toe down first, find what branches are under it, adjust for firmer footing, all by feel. You aren't stalking game stomping thru the leaf fall with your LL Beans smashing every twig underfoot.

Do that and you should unload it. It's not hunting, it's a brisk hike thru difficult footing with an elapsed time in mind.

It's about mindset. Some hunt one way, others another. If it takes two hours to move 500m thru the woods to your specific hunting spot looking over a field, bedding area, or connecting trail, I suspect you hunt loaded.

If it's a chore to get as quickly as you can there, you hunt unloaded. Me, I'm locked and loaded before I even lose sight of my parked car. In the Ozarks, deer bed down where they are secure, and that can be a thicket within eyesight of the road. I've jumped deer within yards of my parked car.

If you need to glass the surrounding mountainside to locate game, that can be a different situation. You can lock and load as you approach them from the other side of the hill. In those circumstances some speed is needed to keep up with game.

In any and all cases we should still consider the gun loaded. And for the way I hunt, it is, no fooling. That means each and every time I work the controls I know for a fact the gun can and will go off.

If you hunt unloaded, barrel up, do you? I'm going to suggest that the entire point of the Remington 700 trigger issue shows that some don't. Too many negligent discharges. Too many people blaming the gun.

If the gun can go off any time you change a control on it, then it should be pointed in a safe direction. Me, I prefer it being pointed at the game with it in my sights. Otherwise, it's in the parking lot getting unloaded, and the magazine fed rifle does it more safely. Drop the magazine, retract the bolt. Done.

Rem 700, jack every round thru the chamber.
Win 94, jack every round thru the chamber.

Recipe for negligent discharge. Entirely because it doesn't forestall human error. I can unload the AR with the safety on.

Can you unload your manual action firearm with the safety on? The early Win 94 unlocks the safety every time you return it against the stock. The 700 no longer locks the bolt down when it's on safe.

I don't see AR users suing Colt for a poor design, I do see Remington owners doing it.

I also note a lot of bolt action owners are recommending hunting unloaded.

Do you see the connection?

Tirod,

Again, it is the Remington 700 (and seven, 721, 722, etc) trigger that has a design defect, NOT the safety. The safety is a wonderful piece of engineering in my opinion. Quiet, very secure, and in original configuration locks the bolt as a safety should, it can be manipulated without taking hand off of natural firing position. The 700 safety locks the striker rearward by its action on the sear. Watch the striker on a 700 as the safety is engaged, it moves rearward slightly when in safe position.

If one can not stand taking the safety off to reload, Ultra Light Arms sells a replacement 700 bolt locking safety that allows one to unlock the bolt to unload while leaving the rifle on safe.

Also, if you are unloading a 700, or most bolt actions for that matter, by jacking every round through the chamber, you are doing it wrong. Just push the bolt forward enough to release round from magazine, and retract. The rounds will fall out in your hand one by one without any need to chamber them.

I was taught to not trust mechanical safeties. Mechanical things fail as do humans. I don't want another variable into the safe equation other than myself.

My basic rifle through the years, was a Pre- War Model 70 Winchester.
When hunting, I always had a round in the chamber with the safety on , but I NEVER carried my rifle "slung".
However, my hunting methods are/were different than today.
I knew the "trails", parked my butt and a "neck shot" was common.
My record is currently 33 PA whitetail bucks over the years!
My Ruger # 1 however, has a tang safety which I prefer to monitor when carrying!
P.S. I killed a bunch of Deer with that rifle also.

At times I cover a lot of ground with a rifle loaded and slug over one shoulder muzzle up. I don't like the idea of the muzzle down on a loaded rifle, muzzle swinging back and forth past my legs/knees. I have control over the muzzle, and can move it from slung to shooting position in a very smooth quick fashion, takes a little practice but not difficult nor dangerous. Safeties in the woods are no more or less reliable than one on the range or a firearm being handled in the home.

Blame it on the military I suppose but any time I'm actively hunting, I keep my rifle in my hands and don't sling it at all.