Badger Arms
Member
I'll be honest, I had high hopes for this method. Does anybody know why they are acting this way at higher velocities?
New Nail-Gun Blank video: Now with Round Balls
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Salmoneye
Member
.215" in a .217" bore/.222" groove barrel?
I'd say you answered why at faster speeds the shot are not stabilizing...
I'd say you answered why at faster speeds the shot are not stabilizing...
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Badger Arms
Member
I can't see how the groove diameter was affecting accuracy that much that it would not be on a sheet of paper at 25 yards. Best guess is possibly overstabilizing to a point where they are falling apart? But it was the opposite with pellets where the yellow power level was the most accurate... even at 2,800 FPS I was getting groups similar to bulk-pack 22 LR.Salmoneye said:
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Salmoneye
Member
Pellets have a hollow base and 'slug up' with the higher power...
Now...If you patched those 'round balls', you'd have a winner...
Now...If you patched those 'round balls', you'd have a winner...
25cschaefer
Member
Shoot some .270 through a 30-06 and see if you can hit a piece of paper. (Just kidding, don't do that.)
The balls are bouncing down the bore, at a high velocity to boot. That's why they don't fly straight, if they were sealing the bore, I would say the friction was melting them as well. I have found a few fuzzy lead bullets on the ground on the range, and one that looked like a lead Christmas tree, from being fired too fast, melting in the bore, and cooling in the air.
The balls are bouncing down the bore, at a high velocity to boot. That's why they don't fly straight, if they were sealing the bore, I would say the friction was melting them as well. I have found a few fuzzy lead bullets on the ground on the range, and one that looked like a lead Christmas tree, from being fired too fast, melting in the bore, and cooling in the air.
Bigdog57
Member
"Shoot some .270 through a 30-06 and see if you can hit a piece of paper. (Just kidding, don't do that.)"
Had a range buddy do that accidentally once. Sounded 'odd', shot very low. Fireformed the .270 case into .30-06!
I have a box of #2 power loads, but haven't tried this shooting method yet. I have various weights of .22 pellets to try. I am expecting good things from the Eunjin heavyweights, as they are more cylindrical.
Had a range buddy do that accidentally once. Sounded 'odd', shot very low. Fireformed the .270 case into .30-06!
I have a box of #2 power loads, but haven't tried this shooting method yet. I have various weights of .22 pellets to try. I am expecting good things from the Eunjin heavyweights, as they are more cylindrical.
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Badger Arms
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There are more videos coming. I didn't patch them, but I did mix it up a bit.Salmoneye said:
Vern Humphrey
Member
Two reasons -- they're undersize for the bore (should be .223 to .224) and you're shooting them unlubricated. Try a larger shot and use Liquid Alox.
Also, try the Hammond Game Getter, http://www3.telus.net/gamegetter/
I have one of these in .30-06. I shoot a 00 buckshot, and the Game Getter comes with a simple sizing die, so I get the correct diameter.
MachIVshooter
Member
Ain't friction that does it; it's the powder. You can drive lead bullets pretty fast with gas checks, some fellows reporting over 3,000 FPS with hard cast in centerfire rifles.
Alternatively, the bullets you found may have been the result of a soft alloy and severe bore leading.
As to why the groups go away after a certain speed, I think curveball. The balls are not big enough in diameter , nor have enough length to sufficiently grab the rifling and spin. Most likely they are spinning on an axis perpendicular to the bore, effectively rolling out of the barrel at high speed. The air flowing over the part of the ball rotating towards the target increase in pressure and pushes the ball off the bore line.
That's my theory anyway. Can you set up a larger target to test it? You could also test the ball-breaking-up theory by putting a larger target closer to you. I thing if the shot was coming apart you'd have damage to the crony though.
That's my theory anyway. Can you set up a larger target to test it? You could also test the ball-breaking-up theory by putting a larger target closer to you. I thing if the shot was coming apart you'd have damage to the crony though.
Salmoneye
Member
I like the baseball...
I believe a contributing factor to the undersize balls, is that round ball barrels are verrryyyy slow twist...
The balls are over spinning at the higher velocity...
I believe a contributing factor to the undersize balls, is that round ball barrels are verrryyyy slow twist...
The balls are over spinning at the higher velocity...
Vern Humphrey
Member
Except that the axis of rotation of the baseball is at approximately a right angle to the direction the ball is moving. The axis of rotation of a rifle bullet is parallel to the direction of motion. The baseball diagram wouldn't work for a rifle ball.
I wonder is you might generate a random spin direction on each shot producing a "curve ball" that heads off in any direction? I suspect not considering the distance is pretty short of those shots. I'd rather suspect that there's some deformation of the ball that causes them to deflect leaving the muzzle.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Here's your answer:
I would expect many of the recovered balls are not engraved with the rifling, or if they are they are engraved only randomly.
Try a larger ball -- .223 to .224, and lube it with Liquid Alox.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Yep. As I say, a larger ball is indicated, and lubrication if you're going to push it much over 800 fps or so.
BCRider
Member
You're shooting balls that don't do more than barely touch the rifling. It's no wonder that they are not stabilizing and grouping.
Muzzle loaders would never expect a ball of that size to bore to shoot well. It would either need to be larger so it fully engraved into and sealed off the rifling or it would need to be patched to provide the grab on the rifling.
As mentioned the pellets would slug up and force fit due to the hollow back. You don't get this with the round ball.
So all in all not only is your poor accuracy from this size round ball not a surprise but I'd actually expect it to be the case even before the second trigger pull.
Muzzle loaders would never expect a ball of that size to bore to shoot well. It would either need to be larger so it fully engraved into and sealed off the rifling or it would need to be patched to provide the grab on the rifling.
As mentioned the pellets would slug up and force fit due to the hollow back. You don't get this with the round ball.
So all in all not only is your poor accuracy from this size round ball not a surprise but I'd actually expect it to be the case even before the second trigger pull.
Vern Humphrey
Member
I would definitely scrub out the bore before doing any more experimenting -- and expect to see a lot of lead come out.
savanahsdad
Member
have you tried to slug the barrel with one of those round balls , should be tight all the way through , I'm guessing at .217 there not ,
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Badger Arms
Member
I took a cleaning rod and slugged a round ball down the bore. I did my best to take a picture with my Sony camera on the back of my Magpul phone case. You can see the cleaning rod made a ring on the bottom of the ball. There are faint marks where the rifling engraved the ball. So, it's not just floating down the bore and I did get a fair degree of accuracy out of the light loads.
Yes, I did clean the bore thoroughly following this session and, as expected, there was some lead buildup. That came out with a little effort. I did not clean the bore between shots or go back to the light loads. I doubt that within 10 shots, the bore would have gone from 4" groups to only hitting the paper once.
Reading through the answers and thinking this to death, I imagine that the high-pressure loads were causing gas cutting that was reducing velocity. The gas cutting might have reduced the contact with the rifling and caused the balls to randomly tumble?
The only analog I can think of is a smooth bore, but a smooth bore would have been more accurate at 25 yards.
Yes, I did clean the bore thoroughly following this session and, as expected, there was some lead buildup. That came out with a little effort. I did not clean the bore between shots or go back to the light loads. I doubt that within 10 shots, the bore would have gone from 4" groups to only hitting the paper once.
Reading through the answers and thinking this to death, I imagine that the high-pressure loads were causing gas cutting that was reducing velocity. The gas cutting might have reduced the contact with the rifling and caused the balls to randomly tumble?
The only analog I can think of is a smooth bore, but a smooth bore would have been more accurate at 25 yards.
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Salmoneye
Member
I still say the ball is over spinning at the higher velocity...
That is why I feel the 'baseball' pic has a point...
ML barrels for round balls are slow twist in the 1:48 to 1:60 range...They can take a good velocity without 'over spinning' the ball...The effect of a ball spinning too fast is that it 'grabs' the air and curves...
Barrels for maxi-ball/sabots are in the 1:20 to 1:28 range...This stabilizes the longer projectile like a football...
I have two distinctly different twist 50 cal ML's just for this reason...
I also agree that I may be all wet, and the charge is simply blowing by the loose fitting ball...
When you get gas cutting of lead due to blowby you should be able to see a grey haze in front of the throat...
That is why I feel the 'baseball' pic has a point...
ML barrels for round balls are slow twist in the 1:48 to 1:60 range...They can take a good velocity without 'over spinning' the ball...The effect of a ball spinning too fast is that it 'grabs' the air and curves...
Barrels for maxi-ball/sabots are in the 1:20 to 1:28 range...This stabilizes the longer projectile like a football...
I have two distinctly different twist 50 cal ML's just for this reason...
I also agree that I may be all wet, and the charge is simply blowing by the loose fitting ball...
When you get gas cutting of lead due to blowby you should be able to see a grey haze in front of the throat...
Vern Humphrey
Member
Interestingly enough, my Model 70 Winchester shoots sized 00 buckshot quite accurately -- one inch groups at 25 yards -- with my Hammond Game Getter. The .30-06, originally designed to shoot a 220 grain bullet, has a 1 in 10 twist.
But I hold the velocity down, using a brown blank, and size my buckshot to about .310".
But I hold the velocity down, using a brown blank, and size my buckshot to about .310".
Salmoneye
Member
I too shoot .310" round balls in '06, and .30-30...
I find them very accurate and deadly on garden pests to 60 yards...
I find them very accurate and deadly on garden pests to 60 yards...
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Badger Arms
Member
I do get quite a smoke cloud when shooting the round balls and yellow loads. I think blow-by is a distinct likelihood.
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