Pistol caliber carbines

unfortunately, those are two models I do not have trigger time with. I've shot the HK USC, Hipoint, Beretta CX4, and AR15 carbine.

between those four, I would vote

AR15 for accuracy, ammo capacity, and aftermarket offerings.
Beretta for best trigger and most lightweight.
the HK did not impress me at all, I compare it to hipoint in every regard from reliability to trigger quality, and accuracy, which is to say it's functional but I would rather save the several hundred dollars and just get the hi point.

I have also handled the Kel tec and Taurus and dry fired a little. the kel tec felt flimsy compared to any other PCC and and I probably would not own one personally. of all of them, the taurus surprisingly felt the best in hand but was also the heaviest.

of all of those, I would vote for an AR15 carbine.

You couldn't give me a Kel Tec product. I have owned two Kel Tecs. The P3AT was a nightmare. The P11 is reliable but finding a broken ejector every 1,000 rounds or so is a but to much trouble. Until I decide on a reliable pocket pistol the P11 is my EDC. My G19 is great but most of the time I am not going to a rough area. The P11 in my pocket is good enough.

A friend has a Beretta PX4 carbine. The trigger is about the same as my Hi Point. The PX4 is a good shooting rifle. I just cannot bet my life on a gun with a polymer hammer. In my experience Polymer is durable and strong. But it is not a good material for beating stuff. I cannot break the polymer handle on a mattox with a tractor. But if I miss the target swinging the mattox and the handle gets damaged the handle loses a lot of it's strength. I cannot see the hammer on a rifle being any different.

I have two Hi Point carbines. One is a classic 995, the other hi Point is a 995TS. I cannot recall the classic carbine ever malfunctioning in over 10 years. I broke the front sight. That was my fault carrying the gun in a toolbox with no case. The 995TS is fairly new. I have put over 800 rounds through it. The 995TS has not malfunctioned. I haven't even cleaned it other than brushing the barrel. Hi Point says run 1,500 rounds through the carbine before I clean it. The other carbines might be more flashy but I will be willing to put my Hi Point against either gun. The Hi Point is accurate and super reliable. In a self defense situation, even if you have a 30 shot magazine if you haven't ended the conversation in 10 shots you just as well bend over and kiss your ass good bye. It is not like a pistol., even in low light just using the front sight all 10 shots will be in a 3 inch group. The 135gr Critical Duty bullets hit like a 357 from a carbine.

Even though Hi Points are +p rated do not use +p ammo in your carbine. Pistol bullets are designed for pistol velocity. If you shoot a +P+ or +p cartridge in a carbine it will over expand and fail to penetrate. All I have for testing is water jugs. Only the critical duty delivered optimal performance at self defense ranges. For SHTF I would recommend Federal 9BPLE ammo. You will need to use you carbine for hunting. At 50 yards the +P+ load will have lost enough velocity to be brutally effective. From a carbine the 9BPLE has a velocity of over 1,500 fps. You can make 100 yard shot without crazy hold over like you would experience with a slower cartridge.

I picked up a Hi-Point 995 a few years ago. Loved it.
Loved it so much that I bought the first .45 Hi-Point PCC that I found. Put a cheap red dot on it.
Love that one, too.

Only other PCC I have is a Marlin in .44 mag. Higher quality, just as much fun.

Legacy makes a 9mm carbine that is a M1 clone. Unfortunately it is not a true M1 clone. The sights are oddball. Accessories are sparse. I have handled one but everyone I know is waiting on someone else to buy one so they can try it out. The gun feels good. The legacy is made by Rock Island Armory. In my opinion the rifle will have to stay in production for around 10 years before you will see anything but mom and pop shops making anything for it.

The Hi Point has been around forever. Over 60 police departments use the Hi Point and are willing to recommend it still accessories are slim to none for it. That tells the story for the Legacy 9mm M1.

tahunua001 said:

the HK did not impress me at all, I compare it to hipoint in every regard from reliability to trigger quality, and accuracy, which is to say it's functional but I would rather save the several hundred dollars and just get the hi point.

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That surprise me greatly. I have a USC and mine runs like a sewing machine, never had any failure with any ammo. It will reliably put ever round into the same ragged hole all day long, too (at PCC range). It's expensive but I've never had or even heard of any problems with reliability or accuracy (not talking DIY conversions and FA).

I will say that although I love my Storm it has the worst trigger I've ever felt on a real gun, bar none. First time I took it to the range I thought I had forgotten to take it of safe...but nope, the trigger is just that heavy. It's a bit of a crapshoot with some samples being okay and others horrendous. Mine is horrendous. I dunno it it's gotten better as I shoot it or if I'm just getting used to how crappy it is. I do plan on sending it to Sierra Papa for an upgraded trigger.

swixt said:

the carbine, if course, for some non-shooter type for home defense. Other than that, I see no point in them. If I'm going to lug around a longarm, it's going to be something that offers far more range and power than any pistol caliber can offer.

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While I'm of similar mindset, this thread isn't about the merits of the PCC... That's been done here.

Love my Glock 9 model Sub2K. Fun to shoot, extremely reliable, eats everything I fed it. Paid $299 new for it a few years ago. My only complaint was the front sight. It's a plastic POS, replaced it with a metal Hi-Point AK type.

It folds! Can carry it, and several 17 or 33 round Glock magazines, anywhere without raising a hue and cry in a computer shoulder bag. Try that with your Storm.

why not get the citadel ? version of the m1 carbine in 9mm? takes beretta 92 mags.

I have a couple AR's in 9mm, one with a SBR lower and 9.5" barrel. Great shooters and absolutely the best option currently.

However, there is one more I'll be adding to the collection soon. The new CZ Scorpion Evo 3, review here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XAYsYwZGxI

Adding $200 for the tax stamp is a must IMO, can't want to SBR one of these!

I own both a kel tec 2k(9mm) and a jr carbine(9mm) love both of them. The kel tec is not near as rugged as the jr carbine. Have shot close too 1500 rounds through the jr without any problems(occasional stove pipe). Love the price of the pistol round, can plink all day. Many accessories can be bought for jr carbine to suit your needs, the kel tec is a basic rifle, cheap sites but very accurate non the less, and it folds up and locks(that adds cool factor). I bought them to plink and they work great for me, they both take glock 17 magazines, may someday buy a glock just to be consistent. Conversion kits are available to change the jr carbine to 40 s&w or 45acp if wanted. I don't regret buying either but if had to choose I would keep the jr carbine. Hope I was helpful.

swixt said:

every topic under the sun"has been done here", so that's not a valid criticism of my post. The "overexpansion/underpenetration thing is an outright fabrication/misrepresentation. If you'd like to stand on the other side of say, an 8" thick animal, while I shoot it thru the chest with a 9mm carbine and CorBon 100 gr jhp's, I've got a test for you!

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Read this thread if you think that ammo doesn't matter when using a carbine.
http://www.hipointfirearmsforums.com/forum/f278/pistol-vs-carbine-gel-throwdown-284214/

There are a bunch of 357mag carbine gel tests on youtube. Some of the 357mag bullets over expanded so much they penetrated less than 10". If you still think over expansion is BS you are entitled to your opinion. But you have to do your homework to see the truth. No one is going to stand behind a target or anything stupid.

I bought a cx4 Beretta carbine last year and love it. It is chambered in 9mm which makes it affordable to shoot a lot. The best thing for me is how quiet it is to shoot compared to a rifle or even a 9mm handgun. Great for plinking or even home defense if you prefer a long gun for that role. Low recoil, low blast, and just plain fun to shoot.

swixt said:

every topic under the sun"has been done here", so that's not a valid criticism of my post. The "overexpansion/underpenetration thing is an outright fabrication/misrepresentation. If you'd like to stand on the other side of say, an 8" thick animal, while I shoot it thru the chest with a 9mm carbine and CorBon 100 gr jhp's, I've got a test for you!

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I didn't criticize your post, and I didn't say a thing about over expansion...

I literally said "I'm of a similar mindset", and you think it's reasonable to come back with "well let me shoot you then!"?

Really?

Tony50ae said:

I bought a cx4 Beretta carbine last year and love it. It is chambered in 9mm which makes it affordable to shoot a lot. The best thing for me is how quiet it is to shoot compared to a rifle or even a 9mm handgun. Great for plinking or even home defense if you prefer a long gun for that role. Low recoil, low blast, and just plain fun to shoot.

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For a guy trying to save some money -- that is NOT what I needed to hear!

Tony50ae said:

I bought a cx4 Beretta carbine last year and love it. It is chambered in 9mm which makes it affordable to shoot a lot. The best thing for me is how quiet it is to shoot compared to a rifle or even a 9mm handgun. Great for plinking or even home defense if you prefer a long gun for that role. Low recoil, low blast, and just plain fun to shoot.

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We love our Hi Points for the very same reason. Even with today's ammo prices we can get 9mm ammo for $200 a 1,000 rounds shipped to the front door. We have 9mm pistols so the carbines were a natural extension. My wife is 5'3" tall. She is not going to shoot any shotgun enough to become proficient with it. We have a pair of AR15 rifles but they are loud and not that effective for SD. It is not like we need to cover 300 yards for SD. Not to mention most 223/5.56 soft points over expand. I have seen way to many gel tests using calibrated gelatin were a 223/5.56 only penetrated 10" of ballistic gelatin with 4 layers of denim. I am talking about law enforcement quality 223/5.56 ammo, not PPU or any cheap ammo.

Sorry Jframe LOL! But it is true!

And Johnny, I agree with all you said!

OP, I had posted this in an older thread asking about Pistol Caliber Carbines.

9mm carbines -- lots of choices and price points. So, lots for you to think about. I recommend handling them if at all possible.

I own the Beretta CX4 in 9 and 40. They are great ergonomically, relatively compact, accurate and lots of fun. Easily to switch for left or right hand controls and ejection. A plus is the easy and relatively cheap availability of Beretta mags. Some of the aftermarket mags are hit or miss, but MecGar work flawlessly for me.
AR in 9, I have the dedicated Bushmaster Carbon 15 (polymer). AR ergonomics, controls, and uses the Colt style mags which are (were) readily available and not too pricey. Disadvantage is the lower molded for these stick mags and can't use for anything else. Unless the mag profile fits.

I picked up one of the Just Right carbines in 40, yeah, not 9, but same principle. Uses Glock mags. AR controls for the most part (bolt handle is side mount). In theory you can swap barrels and switch calibers. I picked up the conversion set for 9mm but I haven't swapped them out yet. Maybe a 45 set will make it home some day. (45 requires different mag well for 1911 mags). Again a dedicated AR.

There are a couple of outfits selling 9mm uppers to convert existing ARs. Most will require a different hammer or buffer. The lone wolf using Glock mags seems interesting but I already have the Just Right and Bushmaster.
Other options to consider
Ruger had a PC9 carbine some years ago. It was synthetic stock, light, handy and uses mags from the P8x series guns. I have one and it's a great shooter. Mags are easy to find and priced right. Ruger doesn't make them anymore but they are still out there and can be had for around 3-400. I picked up a second from a LGS for <200 (police dept trade-in).

The KelTec series -- they have those with either Glock or other mags. As mentioned above they fold into a compact package. I've shot several but don't own one, so I'll leave the feedback to those that do.
Similarly I don't own the HiPoint so can't comment on those either.

So, lots of choices, but a 9 carbine is a lot of fun and most of them are quite accurate. And yes Jframe -- forget saving money -- a 9MM carbine is too much fun!

Oh, to throw another wrench in the works -- I also have an MP5, an Uzi clone and a MechTech upper for the Glock 9MM lowers. But either of the ARs or CX4 goes to the range more than those.
So, yeah I really do like the carbines.

My vote is with the CX4 Storm. One of the best investments I've ever made. Overall fantastic weapon and great for home defense (quiet, low recoil, higher velocity and easier to control than handgun).

"I would rather save the several hundred dollars and just get the hi point."
Show me an H&K PCC that's "several hundred dollars" more than a hi point. The cheapest I can think of, the USC (UMP modification), is 1500%. That's enough for like 7 Hi Points! Not disparaging anyone's options, but we're talking Kia's and Karma's (actually, I think even a Karma isn't worth 7 Kia's ). The "proper rebuttal" to the above statement is "show me the Hi Point I actually want to be shooting."

Swixt,
Please understand. You are new here, so undoubtedly unaware (no should you be) that we have recently had a number of...unruly...threads on the merits of pistol carbines. The mods are sick of it, regular posters are sick of it, nothing new on the subject has been generated in years apparently --just let it drop, for now. Lots of good reading in other threads from the last few weeks/months. Lots of bull-headed fanboys head-butting bull-heads. Good info, bad info, each repeated ad infinitum.

"This 15" of penetration stuff is if you "have" to shoot the guy in the butt, while he charges backwards at you, on his hands and knees."
America is fatter than she once was, and I'll leave it at that

TCB

I'll say that I only have experience with the Hi point, and it made me want to go out and buy one. It's just a lot of fun, ammo is easy to carry in moderately large amounts, and everyone can shoot them without concerns of recoil. I'd rather buy a model that's better finished than the hi point, but the one I shot a bit never had an issue.

I shoot for fun. I'm not concerned about penetration or wound cavity. I want something that makes me smile when I shoot it.