Toddler fatally shot mom at Walmart

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Blue Brick

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IMO, a purse is a very poor place to carry a concealed weapon, even if the woman is alone; with several young children, the purse being in the cart, probably with the 2 yr old........what could go wrong? (apparently "everything"! )
 
Veronica typically left her Blackfoot, Idaho, home with her gun nestled at her side. So on Christmas morning last week, her husband gave her a present he hoped would make her life more comfortable: a purse with a special pocket for a concealed weapon.

“It was designed for that purpose — to carry a concealed firearm,” Rutledge told The Washington Post late Tuesday night. “And you had to unzip a compartment to find the handgun.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ow-an-idaho-toddler-shot-his-mom-at-wal-mart/
 
So what can we learn from this...?

Carry on body so you never put your firearm down.

Never assume that a child will not get their hands on a firearm that isn't in a locked container. There is no shelf high enough, room remote enough, etc. that can stop them.

Never assume that a child can't fire a firearm because of size, trigger pull, safeties, locks, etc. If they can get their hands on it they can find a way to fire it. It may require two hands, leverage with a pen or pencil, or some other assistance, but if you can fire it, they can fire it.
 
What hso said.

My view is that, if you load a gun, you maintain positive control of it (or give it to someone whose positive control you trust). Putting it down or in a bag away from you is not positive control. Putting it in a drawer or on a shelf is not positive control. If you're going to have it beyond your positive control, you unload it.
 
What HSO said, plus...

Children are never too young to start learning fundamentals of gun safety.

STOP
LEAVE THE AREA
TELL AN ADULT

Curiosity is a force of nature. You can't stop it - but you can take steps to make it less deadly.

You can't get complacent with firearms around children, or make assumptions about what they can/can't do. If the gun is not ON your person, it needs to be locked up.

Later, when the children are trained in the safety and use of firearms, if the children are responsible, and you have established positive control over visitors (e.g. neighborhood kids aren't popping in and out of your house all the time), keeping a gun within reach may be fine (nightstand, etc).

I *still* lock my guns up (or keep them on my person) when my kids have visitors over, unless / until those kids are trained in the use of guns (my oldest boy's high school friends, etc). Even then, the gun(s) that are available for immediate use never leave my sight.
 
What HSO said, plus...

Children are never too young to start learning fundamentals of gun safety.

STOP
LEAVE THE AREA
TELL AN ADULT

Curiosity is a force of nature. You can't stop it - but you can take steps to make it less deadly.

You can't get complacent with firearms around children, or make assumptions about what they can/can't do. If the gun is not ON your person, it needs to be locked up.

Later, when the children are trained in the safety and use of firearms, if the children are responsible, and you have established positive control over visitors (e.g. neighborhood kids aren't popping in and out of your house all the time), keeping a gun within reach may be fine (nightstand, etc).

I *still* lock my guns up (or keep them on my person) when my kids have visitors over, unless / until those kids are trained in the use of guns (my oldest boy's high school friends, etc). Even then, the gun(s) that are available for immediate use never leave my sight.

I agree with most of what you say. In this case, the child was reported to be two years old and apparently in the shopping cart. So I put this 100% on the adult. The kid was obviously too young to leave the area and tell an adult. I don't trust my kid's high school friends for a New York minute even if they are trained in the use of guns. Sounds like you have that covered though.

Re: heavier triggers. When my son was about two, he found one of my pocket knives that had a nail breaker stiff spring. He was able to get it open and cut himself. My bad, but as another poster noted, even a small child will figure out a way to pull the trigger. Unfortunately, that may be with both thumbs while the gun is pointed at his/her head.
 
My youngest is 14. All of my kids have been handling and shooting guns all of their lives from BB guns up to deer rifles. All have killed deer. They don't even notice a gun in the house and really don't get excited when I bring home something new anymore. I keep a loaded revolver in my night stand 24/7 and don't worry about it. There are also two loaded guns in other spots in the house that my kids are aware of for HD.
My oldest is out of college and had to move back in with us for two months last year. I came home one evening and his girlfriend was there with him. So was her 6 year old sister!!! Nothing happened and they were just sitting in the LR watching TV but it scared me that a 6 year old that I knew nothing about could have gotten curious. I still haven't figured out how to deal with this aberration but I did have "the talk" with my kids again.
 
Training understanding and above all safety. This could have been avoided by following safety guidelines. Easy stuff but it must be taken seriously . Kids are kids and do things . That hand gun should never have been where the kid could get to it . A safety on a gun is not sure to keep little hands from disabling it . Blame the purse ?? Not really. failure to control the firearm in what killed her . I can not over stress how important proper safety is AND yes I know a unloaded gun is just a rock . We have to be careful. leaving a loaded gun unattended for just a few seconds cost a young lady her life...
 
I came home one evening and his girlfriend was there with him. So was her 6 year old sister!!! Nothing happened and they were just sitting in the LR watching TV but it scared me that a 6 year old that I knew nothing about could have gotten curious. I still haven't figured out how to deal with this aberration...

When you leave loaded guns out of your control, you are trusting the lack of "aberration" to luck. So far, you have been lucky. I urge you to carefully consider how much you want to rely on luck.
 
I tell my Wife and Range Acquaintances this: It'll only happen once. There simply is no way to be "too safe" and how guns are handled and stored cannot be left to luck or probability.

I feel terrible for the family of the Woman killed by her own child. It only happened once....

Please be safe.

VooDoo
 
This is a Tragedy of epic proportions for her family and community. It is a shame the national media is so blazing stupid and are worse than Jr. HIGH school kid doing a research paper.
 
The kid was obviously too young to leave the area and tell an adult.

Yes, this is very true, but the STOP part of the training could have begun by then.

Now every child is going to be different, and learn at different rates, and be more or less curious than their peers, and more or less well-behaved.

So it really comes down to taking personal precautions to *absolutely* prevent children from accessing guns (e.g. locking them up), *plus* a healthy dose of training - and it's never too early to begin that.

There have been studies done - mainly by anti-gun proponents - where a gun is left in a room with playing children. Usually hidden away in a toybox, or some such nonsense. Then the children are videotaped, to see what they'll do when they "discover" the gun.

Out of idle curiosity I ran the same experiment on my 5 children, putting in a (disabled) cleared gun in the room with a video camera. The gun was inoperable - no striker present - and clear - no ammo present, but very real otherwise.

They found the gun in about 30 minutes.

The older kids who were still in the room backed off, never touched it, and our *youngest* immediately left the room and told us about it. She was 3 years old at the time.

Training *works*.

But training is NO substitute for true physical precautions!

One of the greatest tragedies our "gun culture" has faced is the absolute ban on the discussion of firearms in schools. In my state, in our local school district, there is a zero tolerance policy in place for ANY conversation or gun materials (including game t-shirts, etc, which picture guns of any sort). Violation of that rule is an automatic suspension and/or expulsion.

The days of Eddie Eagle or law enforcement teaching children about gun safety in the classroom are largely gone, and likely forever.

Which means a more than half of today's children (based on gun owner %), will have grown clear to adulthood, without ever having received any training on firearms *whatsoever*!

They will not know the most fundamental rules of "STOP, LEAVE THE AREA, TELL AN ADULT" - and they will have no checks and balances against their own innate curiosity if (more likely WHEN) they first encounter a firearm in real life. All they will have, for their own personal experience, is TV shows, movies, and video games, to teach them.

(And we all know what that means... considering the subject material involved)

As a gun community - at large and en masse - we need to RAIL against those prohibitions on firearms discussions in schools, we need to ABSOLUTELY INSIST that gun safety training is restored in the classroom at each grade level, and we need to CONTINUALLY raise the public awareness about gun safety in all aspects of a child's education.

Programs like J.A.K.E.S. day, boy scouts, etc, are a great success but they still do not reach even a substantial minority of children. As a society, we need to have ALL children trained in elementary firearms safety from a very early age.
 
Two key points that haven't been brought up yet.

1. If a kid knows something is there, he will actively look for it to investigate. If he doesn't know it's there he has nothing to look for. When carrying concealed it is of high importance that the loaded gun be accessible, but with kids in the mix it is equally important to avoid allowing them to be curious. Conceal and reveal out of the eyes of the kids.
2. Attention. When a gun is loaded and is potentially accessible by anyone other than the intended user, there must be someone actively attending it to prevent horseplay or handling by unexpected and unauthorized people. This includes kids and adults alike. When do we assume a gun is loaded? Always. When do we accept that it isnt? When we have full control of it AND have checked it.

Clearly the mother had children who knew she was carrying who found the gun and we're allowed to play with it, even it'll it were for just a few seconds. This one is on the mom, but there are certainly lessons to be learned.
 
IMO, a purse is a very poor place to carry a concealed weapon, even if the woman is alone; with several young children, the purse being in the cart, probably with the 2 yr old........what could go wrong? (apparently "everything"! )
While I agree that a purse is not ideal carry, CC is a trade off of many factors with "concealed" at the top of the list. What would you suggest? Ankle holster? That would pretty well make 3/4 to 90% of the average woman's skirts unwearable. My B cup wonders couldn't conceal a Commander very well so a bra holster isn't practical, not to mention I can't imagine having a problem I would need it that would allow me to reach under my blouse to get the weapon. My curves and the tightness of my clothing would print the weapon anywhere on my waistline. The handbag, for all it's faults, answers the basic role of concealment.

That said, I have seen a number of women that take the attitude their purse is going to be treated as a sacred object and have no need to keep it in their immediate possession. In fact, society now dictates a too protective attitude to your purse is at best suspicious. Case in point, a white or Asian woman in an elevator when a black or Hispanic male enters clutching her purse and moving away has been declared a racist act. Never mind she would do the same with a Caucasian male.

Leaving a purse in the cart, whether it contains a weapon or not, is as foolish an act as I can imagine. Especially with the added distraction of children if only for the reason it gives those of insidious intent the opportunity to grab and run. This is where the careless act came in, not her choice of carry.
 
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+!^^^
My wife carried in her purse for many years because she was never comfortable with a gun on her person. The purse isn't ideal but neither is IWB, ankle, pocket or shoulder. They are all compromises. She carried in her purse or didn't take the gun out of the car.
 
Purse carry is better than no carry.

Just do it reasonably, same as any other method.
 
I don't know how many times I have seen women in public allowing their very young kids to rummage through their purses. Seems to be a fairly common practice. Whether they keep treats in there, or allow the kid to grab the keys and/or cell phone to play with. it's like a way to keep the baby quiet for a little while. How can a firearm possibly be secure in a bag full of children's entertainment?
My mom would have slapped my hand if I ever got into her purse!

I am not accusing this poor woman of this, but IF any kid is allowed to play in a purse, even once, it should not be used as a carry place until the child is well trained to keep out. And then, the purse should never be removed from her direct control while there is a gun in it. It is poor practice for a woman to leave her purse in a shopping cart, anyway.

I feel bad for the whole family, especially for the kid that was only doing what kids do.
 
As soon as I read the headline in our local paper I knew what had happened before reading the article. And I was right. Off body carry and kids do not mix.
 
The first thing I would like to express, is that my prayers go out to her family and friends.

There certainly is a valuable message to be expressed, that of which addresses, basic firearm safety.

Another tragic and relative example of this type, was a firearm instructor that was accidentally shot and killed here in my state just recently, also by a child. But I sincerely feel, and with very few exceptions, that nearly every accident of this nature can be totally prevented by just applying some common horse sense. Whether, or not a person will react appropriately during a confrontation, is secondary to learning and abiding by firearm safety 101, better known as the 10 commandments of gun safety. I know that sounds incredibly simple minded and fundamentally basic, but I honestly feel basic gun safety should be the first, and always the most important aspect of firearm ownership. And although it's always recommended to have an experienced instructor teaching this particular aspect of firearms, truth is, it's not brain surgery, and can be successfully and effectively self implemented by those who understand the significance of gun safety.

GS
 
I know plenty disagree, but this is why I wont even holster my g17 with a round chambered. I refuse to carry a chambered weapon with no mechanical safety. That may not have been the case here, but I strongly suspect it was.
 
Carrying a Glock in your purse with no safety was a bad choice in a firearm with a kid around it. What a tragedy.

Sorry your article says M and P. The article I read days ago said it was a Glock. Regardless im not sure if the S&W has a safety.
 
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Gameover;

Safety or no, if it is in a proper holster, it's safe. PLENTY of people (me included) carry a Glock or S&W Shield for their every day carry gun - I carry a Glock 19.

I carry that Glock 19 with a round in the chamber, and there is no external safety - other than the trigger.

What made THIS gun in THIS incident "not safe" was not retaining positive control over the firearm. That's a negligent action.

The important point to take home is one I teach in basic pistol class - you cannot rely on a safety - it is a mechanical device, which can and will fail.

If the kid can open a purse designed for carrying a gun, it means they know how to work a zipper, at least. If they have the fine motor skills required to manipulate a zipper, they're going to have absolutely no problem flipping a lever or pushing a button.

No, the mistake and tragedy here was caused by not retaining positive control over the firearm, not the specific make & model.
 
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