Shot Show: RCBS 7 station Pro Chucker Progressive
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ljnowell
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higgite
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Interesting. I've seen people complain about a Lee progressive press priming on the upstroke due to having no feel with everything else going on at the same time, but never a complaint about priming on the downstroke. I've never used a Dillon 1050 and am curious, why do you think priming on the downstroke is inferior?
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GW Staar
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Higgite, I think you misunderstood his post. The new RCBS machines and the Dillon 650 prime on the upstroke, the Dillon 1050 on the downstroke.
I have to assume the 1050 has a primer stop (as does the Pro 2000) and thus "feel" when you use the stop isn't even relevant.
Not setting the primer stop makes "feel" relevant. I always felt that a downstroke using the press's mechanical leverage as well as gravity allows for less feel IMO.
The upstroke on the other hand goes against gravity and thus leverage feels less to me.....allowing for more feel....again my opinion.
Maybe someone who uses the 1050 can clear one thing up for me. Is the priming station by itself or is it combined with expanding as on all other progressives?
As for the 1050 being better at something over the Pro Chucker 7, I have no doubts.....after all it has 8 stations and costs a lot more money. On the other hand the P.C.7 will find a niche between the Pro Chucker/650/Pro 2000/Hornady AP, and the 1050. Afterall it supplies 2 more stations than those presses.
I have to assume the 1050 has a primer stop (as does the Pro 2000) and thus "feel" when you use the stop isn't even relevant.
Not setting the primer stop makes "feel" relevant. I always felt that a downstroke using the press's mechanical leverage as well as gravity allows for less feel IMO.
The upstroke on the other hand goes against gravity and thus leverage feels less to me.....allowing for more feel....again my opinion.
Maybe someone who uses the 1050 can clear one thing up for me. Is the priming station by itself or is it combined with expanding as on all other progressives?
As for the 1050 being better at something over the Pro Chucker 7, I have no doubts.....after all it has 8 stations and costs a lot more money. On the other hand the P.C.7 will find a niche between the Pro Chucker/650/Pro 2000/Hornady AP, and the 1050. Afterall it supplies 2 more stations than those presses.
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jmorris
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The 1050 shell plate only rotates, the tool head moves up and down with the stroke of the handle. Most other presses the shell plate moves up into the dies as you pull the handle down. This causes some confusion when referring to "up/down" stroke as some are talking about ram movement and others are talking about handle movement.
The primer dept on a 1050 is set with an Allen wrench from the top of the tool head.
The black push rod to the left side of the center die in the photo below (expander and backup rod for the swager) is threaded and that is the depth adjustment. It pushes on the rocker arm that activates the primer anvil, seating the primer. Nothing happens at station #4 except priming however at the exact same time a case is being sized/deprimed, expanded and swaged, primed, charged with powder and being belled if needed, powder checked, bullet being seated and case being crimped, why the operator cannot feel the primer being seated. The only thing that happens on the up stroke on the 1050 is a case is inserted into the shell plate, not counting return of the primer slide, powder bar and indexing.
The silver rod to the right of the die is one that locates the shell plate.
The reason it is superior is that every primer is seated to the same depth all the time and that depth is adjustable. No more high primers just because a tight pocket (like S&B brass for example) causing the operator to feel more resistance and thinking he has seated the primer the same as all the rest.
I think priming this way would be a very bad idea without a swager. As noted you can't feel it happening and it seats the primer to the same depth all the time. Without a swager and say a crimped primer pocket the primer would be crushed to the seat depth. Thus the reason you need to "feel" the primer, if your cases are not swaged.
The primer dept on a 1050 is set with an Allen wrench from the top of the tool head.
The black push rod to the left side of the center die in the photo below (expander and backup rod for the swager) is threaded and that is the depth adjustment. It pushes on the rocker arm that activates the primer anvil, seating the primer. Nothing happens at station #4 except priming however at the exact same time a case is being sized/deprimed, expanded and swaged, primed, charged with powder and being belled if needed, powder checked, bullet being seated and case being crimped, why the operator cannot feel the primer being seated. The only thing that happens on the up stroke on the 1050 is a case is inserted into the shell plate, not counting return of the primer slide, powder bar and indexing.
The silver rod to the right of the die is one that locates the shell plate.
The reason it is superior is that every primer is seated to the same depth all the time and that depth is adjustable. No more high primers just because a tight pocket (like S&B brass for example) causing the operator to feel more resistance and thinking he has seated the primer the same as all the rest.
I think priming this way would be a very bad idea without a swager. As noted you can't feel it happening and it seats the primer to the same depth all the time. Without a swager and say a crimped primer pocket the primer would be crushed to the seat depth. Thus the reason you need to "feel" the primer, if your cases are not swaged.
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GW Staar
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That makes sense. The dedicated station for priming means it has 7 stations for other things. What about the swaging station, is that combined with another one?
I use the Pro 2000's primer stop. It would be a really bad idea except that I swage and uniform every single primer pocket first during case prep using a bench swager and a Trim Mate off press.
That means my primer pockets are all the same width and depth, making a primer stop feasible. This process was learned, having experienced very aggravating interruptions of the progressive loading process, due to primer pockets.
The 1050 has a big plus with the built-in swager and that's a feature I don't think the RCBS Pro Chucker 7 can have with the traditional die plate. But that's only half the equation. A press primer stop can only seat the same depth if the primer pockets are as deep as the "press set depth" (or Deeper). So to be sure you have all your ammo's primers the same depth, you still have to uniform off press. Right?
I use the Pro 2000's primer stop. It would be a really bad idea except that I swage and uniform every single primer pocket first during case prep using a bench swager and a Trim Mate off press.
That means my primer pockets are all the same width and depth, making a primer stop feasible. This process was learned, having experienced very aggravating interruptions of the progressive loading process, due to primer pockets.
The 1050 has a big plus with the built-in swager and that's a feature I don't think the RCBS Pro Chucker 7 can have with the traditional die plate. But that's only half the equation. A press primer stop can only seat the same depth if the primer pockets are as deep as the "press set depth" (or Deeper). So to be sure you have all your ammo's primers the same depth, you still have to uniform off press. Right?
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jmorris
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On my 1050's I set them for a little "crush" all primers are below flush. I don't do any special prep on brass for them. On my automated 1050's I do run them through once so they are "prepped" (sized/deprimed and swaged). Actually just a double check that all of the cases will run through the load process without any problems.
My sorter sorts well enough but berdan primer cases, for example, is one thing it does not sort and I don't want to have to clear the machine during loading. I don't do this on my manual machines because it adds a lot more work than filling the collator and hitting the run button.
The swage station is also the expand station on a 1050 they don't use the same powder through expander that the SD, 550 and 650 use.
I did set up my 45 acp with a device that detects and culls out small primer pocket brass at that station, before it can make it to the priming station.
All sounds a bit more work than it actually is.
This is one of them, minus the powder measure, bullets in the feeder or powder check, processing at a rate somewhere around 4300 cases/hr.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1ieGYpdr9I
This is how the Small primer pocket culler works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V7vSEAqkZw&spfreload=10
This is the "load" pass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrFhnDQ-eUU
Worth pointing out that having everything happen at the same end of the stroke makes automation easy as you only need to hit one end of the stroke with precision, the other end really doesn't matter as long as you return and index. If you have jobs that happen at both ends, that demand tight tolerances it adds to the difficulty.
My sorter sorts well enough but berdan primer cases, for example, is one thing it does not sort and I don't want to have to clear the machine during loading. I don't do this on my manual machines because it adds a lot more work than filling the collator and hitting the run button.
The swage station is also the expand station on a 1050 they don't use the same powder through expander that the SD, 550 and 650 use.
I did set up my 45 acp with a device that detects and culls out small primer pocket brass at that station, before it can make it to the priming station.
All sounds a bit more work than it actually is.
This is one of them, minus the powder measure, bullets in the feeder or powder check, processing at a rate somewhere around 4300 cases/hr.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1ieGYpdr9I
This is how the Small primer pocket culler works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V7vSEAqkZw&spfreload=10
This is the "load" pass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrFhnDQ-eUU
Worth pointing out that having everything happen at the same end of the stroke makes automation easy as you only need to hit one end of the stroke with precision, the other end really doesn't matter as long as you return and index. If you have jobs that happen at both ends, that demand tight tolerances it adds to the difficulty.
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higgite
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jmorris and GWS,
Yes, I was using the terms upstroke/downstroke in relation to the shellplate movement. Like i said, I've never used a 1050 and didn't realize it's built bass ackwards.
Thanks for clearing things up for me. I now see your point. I too use the depth stop on my Pro 2000, but I sort of ease my way into the priming "push". I have "felt" a couple of un-swaged crimped pockets that sneaked through inspection and maybe I've been lucky to not have any twisted or crushed primers to date. (Insert a BIG "knock on wood" here. I probably just jinxed myself.) Thanks again for the explanations.
Yes, I was using the terms upstroke/downstroke in relation to the shellplate movement. Like i said, I've never used a 1050 and didn't realize it's built bass ackwards.
Thanks for clearing things up for me. I now see your point. I too use the depth stop on my Pro 2000, but I sort of ease my way into the priming "push". I have "felt" a couple of un-swaged crimped pockets that sneaked through inspection and maybe I've been lucky to not have any twisted or crushed primers to date. (Insert a BIG "knock on wood" here. I probably just jinxed myself.) Thanks again for the explanations.
I hand prime, so it is a non issue. If I had a 1050, it might be different.
Can the new RCBS 5 & 7 station presses do what it can with the priming? I do basically the same thing with my hand primer. I made my own seater rods and seat them with a full stroke, whether that is hard or soft. They are always at the bottom of the primer pocket with at least some crush to them. After all, as posted, the cup should be pushed down over the anvil some more, preferable all the way to flush.
Can the new RCBS 5 & 7 station presses do what it can with the priming? I do basically the same thing with my hand primer. I made my own seater rods and seat them with a full stroke, whether that is hard or soft. They are always at the bottom of the primer pocket with at least some crush to them. After all, as posted, the cup should be pushed down over the anvil some more, preferable all the way to flush.
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GW Staar
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If you had a Pro 2000 it might be different too.
As for priming on the Pro Chuckers, that's an unknown for me so far. If a primer stop isn't included, that would be my first mod. Hope its similar to the Pro 2000. Just don't know yet.....maybe time for another email to the engineer (can't name him on line, that was a promise I won't break).
As for priming on the Pro Chuckers, that's an unknown for me so far. If a primer stop isn't included, that would be my first mod. Hope its similar to the Pro 2000. Just don't know yet.....maybe time for another email to the engineer (can't name him on line, that was a promise I won't break).
DaveInFloweryBranchGA
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There's a lot to like on this new press, but there's some things to dislike. As it stands, it's superior to most everything out there but the 1050, but falls underneath that press in price signficantly.
That said, I feel great disappointment they did not offer the APS primer feed system on this press. If they had that system, I would be selling my Pro 2000 and working to save up money for this press. But as it stands, I'll be keeping my Pro 2000 and waiting to see how this press fares with the early buyers.
That said, I feel great disappointment they did not offer the APS primer feed system on this press. If they had that system, I would be selling my Pro 2000 and working to save up money for this press. But as it stands, I'll be keeping my Pro 2000 and waiting to see how this press fares with the early buyers.
shoebox56
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If Prochucker 7 has the same kind of warranty as Pro 2000, I think that maybe the only other advantage over the Dillon 1050.
DaveInFloweryBranchGA
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I find it interesting people are comparing this press to the Dillon 1050. Speaks volumes about it's good aspects. But street prices so far indicate it's a good bit less expensive than the 1050 and it's not intended to be a commercial grade press like the 1050.
That said, another aspect where it'll be advantageous over the 1050 is cost of caliber change overs. It should be hugely less expensive and much easier to change over from what I see in the pics. It's also simpler mechanically, so should be simple to adjust, clean and keep adjusted.
Of course, this is for a home owner press, not a commercial press.
That said, another aspect where it'll be advantageous over the 1050 is cost of caliber change overs. It should be hugely less expensive and much easier to change over from what I see in the pics. It's also simpler mechanically, so should be simple to adjust, clean and keep adjusted.
Of course, this is for a home owner press, not a commercial press.
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GW Staar
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Dave's observations matches mine. I don't think you'll be seeing many motorized rams on this one. I personally wouldn't want one, but if I did I'd start with a 1050 set up for ONE caliber.
I have also stated similar views on the APS factor. I tried to expose as many as I could reach to the joys of this "best kept secret" that should have been preached on the housetops by RCBS and wasn't. Their fault.
CCI couldn't preach, of course, and keep other brands happy. Keeping the technology from the competition, doomed it until the patent runs out.
I have also stated similar views on the APS factor. I tried to expose as many as I could reach to the joys of this "best kept secret" that should have been preached on the housetops by RCBS and wasn't. Their fault.
CCI couldn't preach, of course, and keep other brands happy. Keeping the technology from the competition, doomed it until the patent runs out.
Richard Lee has written he thinks RCBS should put the primer strip patents in the Public domain for the safety of all re-loaders.
I have a manual index Pro 2000, with over 30 shell plates, and I love it, it is a vastly improved Dillon 550 in this configuration. The new Rockchucker progressives do not seem to share any parts with the Pro 2000, which makes converting to them much more unlikely for me.
I must say they are much heavier duty construction then the Dillon 650, which is their main competition.
I have a manual index Pro 2000, with over 30 shell plates, and I love it, it is a vastly improved Dillon 550 in this configuration. The new Rockchucker progressives do not seem to share any parts with the Pro 2000, which makes converting to them much more unlikely for me.
I must say they are much heavier duty construction then the Dillon 650, which is their main competition.
And I just bought a bunch or primers in strips because the price was too good to pass up.
Ah well, I bought the APS hand primer as well.
This press is a big jump for RCBS.
I guess some smart (?) people in marketing told them not enough people used the APS strips and they should make the press with a "regular" style priming system.
Ah well, I bought the APS hand primer as well.
This press is a big jump for RCBS.
I guess some smart (?) people in marketing told them not enough people used the APS strips and they should make the press with a "regular" style priming system.
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GW Staar
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I wish my engineer friend would tell me when the strips are going to be discontinued......but he won't......tight lipped bunch they are. Could go on for years or not. I have the hand primer too, and I like it! I have a strip loader (modded of course) and thousands of empty strips, so I'll be in business for a long long time.
Big jump? Yes! two steps forward one step back....the American way I guess.
I so like the smooth indexing....and the 7 stations. Thumbs down on the primer system.
Smart people in marketing? Don't think they have any. They had to be from sales! I may have to run for cover.
I do agree that with the present market, (not so APS savvy), that sales suffered......and why? Geeze marketing has had years to educate and push a great product......they just flat didn't even try....almost like marketing had a thing against R&D, and/or CCI. We will never know. Id be willing to bet that nobody in marketing even learned to use the APS system or they would have sung its virtues instead of staying silent.
Big jump? Yes! two steps forward one step back....the American way I guess.
I so like the smooth indexing....and the 7 stations. Thumbs down on the primer system.
Smart people in marketing? Don't think they have any. They had to be from sales!
I may have to run for cover. I do agree that with the present market, (not so APS savvy), that sales suffered......and why? Geeze marketing has had years to educate and push a great product......they just flat didn't even try....almost like marketing had a thing against R&D, and/or CCI. We will never know. Id be willing to bet that nobody in marketing even learned to use the APS system or they would have sung its virtues instead of staying silent.
I am sure RCBS will support the APS priming system for a while as there is their existing customer base to support.
But, if they do not expand the equipment that uses the APS system, sales will drop and RCBS will discontinue the system.
But, if they do not expand the equipment that uses the APS system, sales will drop and RCBS will discontinue the system.
RealGun
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ATK in general probably knows a thing or two about marketing. Seems to me that this new machine is a master stroke, barring uncompetitive pricing, and will suddenly become the progressive that everyone wants. I have been carefully avoiding the APS system since seeing it in reloading class years back. The equipment wasn't competitively priced or compelling in design or advantage. Now I feel differently given 7 stations and conventional primer handling.
ATK Sporting Group is a portfolio-based consumer branded products company that is the leader in sporting, law enforcement and military ammunition. In addition, ATK Sporting Group is a leading supplier of firearms and accessories for hunting, shooting and outdoor markets.
Accessories
The Sporting Group produces top-quality products for sport hunters, shooting enthusiasts, the military, homeland security and law enforcement agencies. Products include gun-care products, targets and traps, optics, mounting systems for rifle scopes, tactical nylon vests, holsters, harnesses for insertion and extraction, gear bags, packs, pouches, weapons cases, slings, and apparel as well as sports optics and performance eyewear for non-hunting categories that include golf and skiing. Products are marketed with targeted and contemporary methods that drive sales.
Look for these leading brands: Bushnell, BLACKHAWK!, Eagle, Alliant Powder, RCBS, Champion Target, Final Approach, Gunslick Pro, Primos, Bollé, Outers, Hoppe’s, Uncle Mike’s, Butler Creek and Weaver Optics.
Ammunition
The Sporting Group supplies small-caliber ammunition to sport-shooting enthusiasts, devoted hunters, federal and local law enforcement agencies, and the military. Our ammunition brands include Federal Premium, CCI, Fusion, Speer Ammo, Speer Bullets, Estate Cartridge and Blazer. For details about our Law Enforcement accessories and ammunition products, please visit le.atk.com.
Firearms
Savage Arms is one of the world’s largest manufacturers of firearms with products in the long-gun category. Brands include Savage Arms, Stevens and Savage Range Systems that design, manufacture and market centerfire and rimfire rifles, shotguns and shooting range systems used for hunting as well as competitive and recreational target shooting."
ATK in general probably knows a thing or two about marketing. Seems to me that this new machine is a master stroke, barring uncompetitive pricing, and will suddenly become the progressive that everyone wants. I have been carefully avoiding the APS system since seeing it in reloading class years back. The equipment wasn't competitively priced or compelling in design or advantage. Now I feel differently given 7 stations and conventional primer handling.
higgite
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Me, too. Took advantage of MWUSA's 1/2 price sale on strips of SPP. Now I wish I had bought more. 20/20 hindsight ain't all it's cracked up to be.
codefour
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I may be a little late to the party and will try and revive this thread. I too am a Pro 2000 user. Mine has auto-index. I will say, It has been a very reliable press. I would put it up against any other progressive in its class. I really like the APS strips.
I like the idea of the Pro Chucker 7. I would have liked the Pro 2000 to have been a seven station press from the get go! I read all the above posts. I am in congruence with most of the questions/thoughts. I do NOT like purchasing a separate powder measure for each die plate. That is redundant. I like the micrometer Uniflow.
The one thing I saw on midsouthshooterssupply.com site is the Pro 7 is listed as an aluminum press? FMJBT can you comment on this from your experience at SHOT Show? I did not get to attend this year.
I like that the Pro 2000 is iron/steel. I regularly size my rifle brass on it. I like that the Pro 2000 was designed with cam-over in mind. I have sized thousands of rifle brass while camming-over the Pro 2000. I know you cannot cam-over aluminum Dillon presses. The linkages break. I do not know if you can cam-over a LNL but a LNL is also an aluminum frame.
Does anyone know if the new Pro 7 is an aluminum frame? Can you cam-over a Pro 7?
GWStaar, I E-mailed RCBS and asked the above questions. I also commented regarding the purchase of a new QC Uniflow with each die plate. I politely told them it was a deal breaker.
I like the idea of the Pro Chucker 7. I would have liked the Pro 2000 to have been a seven station press from the get go! I read all the above posts. I am in congruence with most of the questions/thoughts. I do NOT like purchasing a separate powder measure for each die plate. That is redundant. I like the micrometer Uniflow.
The one thing I saw on midsouthshooterssupply.com site is the Pro 7 is listed as an aluminum press? FMJBT can you comment on this from your experience at SHOT Show? I did not get to attend this year.
I like that the Pro 2000 is iron/steel. I regularly size my rifle brass on it. I like that the Pro 2000 was designed with cam-over in mind. I have sized thousands of rifle brass while camming-over the Pro 2000. I know you cannot cam-over aluminum Dillon presses. The linkages break. I do not know if you can cam-over a LNL but a LNL is also an aluminum frame.
Does anyone know if the new Pro 7 is an aluminum frame? Can you cam-over a Pro 7?
GWStaar, I E-mailed RCBS and asked the above questions. I also commented regarding the purchase of a new QC Uniflow with each die plate. I politely told them it was a deal breaker.
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