Documented 22lr Self Defense Failures

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Many years ago, probably early 1970`s a friend stuck a .22 pistol in her mouth and pulled the trigger.
The bullet went through the roof of her mouth, between the two halves of her brain and exited the top of her skull.
She never even lost consciousness.
 
PowerG said:
Maybe not applicable to SD cases but I had a friend whose family owned a meat processing plant in my younger days, worked there during the summer some. The cows were killed with a .22 rifle. I have witnessed many dozens of them shot in the head, DRT. It's all about placement. You get hit in the right spot you've got a serious problem.
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It's not applicable at all to SD, unless you can provide a way to get your attacker to stand still while you put a 22 on his skull.
 
Why would anyone consider a .22 for self defense? You should always choose the largest caliber that you can handle. .380, 38 special, and 9mm are very reasonable recoiling rounds.
 
jrdolall said:
Research the Ronald Reagan shooting. .22 revolver fired at 15 feet. 6 shots in less than 2 seconds from a cheap revolver. Four men were hit, one by ricochet, but none of the four actually died from the gunshots. Brady died some 30 years later and his death was attributed to the gunshot for political reasons. 30 years is not very good "stopping power".
One man with six shots and he hit four people. None of them died and three, Brady excluded, were able to continue after the shooting.
It makes me wonder why the Brady Bunch were after "assault weapons" when he was shot by what is probably the most ubiquitous gun in the USA. But that's a whole 'nother question:)
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Most people shot with a handgun survive. One person in the shooting community said 85%. So it's not surprising no one was killed.

.22 LR is solidly in the "well if that's all you have" category but I wouldn't feel unarmed with a nice little revolver with stingers. Common criminals don't like getting shot with anything. If you run into a hardcore crook he's not going to be so impressed but a .45 isn't going to impress him too much either. Most people stop because they want to not because of the damage done. A perfect heart shot means the guy has at least 10 seconds to shoot at you.
 
JB_3 said:
Why would anyone consider a .22 for self defense? You should always choose the largest caliber that you can handle. .380, 38 special, and 9mm are very reasonable recoiling rounds.
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A lot of folks aren't gun people. And a lot of folks don't have a lot of money. Any gun is better than no gun. Any training is better than no training. A .22 while not ideal is a better choice than nothing. We don't have a lot of cases where crooks kept coming because only .22s were hitting them.
 
If we are going by the Ellifritz study in the failure to incapacitate chart, the 22 is more effective than 32acp and 25acp. Lots of folks consider 32acp adequate.
 
Whatever the case, if you have to use .22lr for self defense, use 40 grain solid-points for optimum penetration.
 
I have heard of a couple in the news they did not involve pistols but rifles.

A little boy nailed a burgler in the head when he tried to advance on him after being warned to go. It killed the burgler/homeinvader.

I think a high velocity .22LR out of a rifle barrel can really nasty business for whoever is on the recieving end.
 
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I can account for hundreds of killings done with a .22lr so I guess that makes me as much an expert as anyone and while they were all effective enough, so far as I can remember, none were human.
I can't fathom a circumstance in which I would choose a 22 over a 380, the smallest I will carry.
 
I think a high velocity .22LR out of a rifle barrel can really nasty business for whoever is on the recieving end.
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Yes but a 30/30 would be better. Show me that you understand why, please.

A .22 l.r. round can certainly be deadly. It's the equivalent of sticking a .220" steel rod into some one about 8-10" deep really fast several times over. An ice pick maybe but a bit thinner and longer. It can certainly kill and stop many attackers. But of the many choices open to us it's the least reliable of the bunch when it comes to doing those things "right now!" which is what you want a bullet to do in a fight.

It's only really used for self defense when you have no other choice.

That some folks may run away when they see a gun, or run when they are shot in the arm with a .22, or high tail it at the sound of a round going off...none of that matters because you can't count on it.

This must be debated about 6 times a year. Which is fine becasue there are always new shooters to the forums. It's usually raised right after someone reads about the Isreali Mossad and that some of them have used .22s for one task or another.

tipoc
 
jimbo555 said:
If we are going by the Ellifritz study in the failure to incapacitate chart, the 22 is more effective than 32acp and 25acp....
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But not by enough to be statistically significant given the small sample sizes (68 for the .25 ACP, 154 for the .22 lr, and 25 for the .32).

So basically what the chart shows is the the performance of the .25, .22 and .32 are roughly comparable and all poorer that the larger cartridges.
 
When I was 13 a man shot my father with a .22lr pistol three times and it did stop him. He bled out in the guys kitchen floor and when paramedics arrived he had no pulse. They put some sort of "pants" on him, aired them up to push the blood from his legs to the rest of his body and revived him. He had no pulse when they arrived at the hospital, but luckily for him the doctor in the ER had served in Vietnam as a medic, and he revived him again, rushed him into surgery. He survived, but not without loosing a lung, kidney, and his right leg has no feeling from lead on his spine. It did stop him although it took three rounds. When the state troopers asked the man who shot him why he shot him three times, he said "because the first two didn't stop him. Lots of alcohol and drugs were involved at the party they had left before the shooting.
 
As to the dead raccoon with a 15/22, it goes without saying that a .22 rifle will always have more power than a .22 handgun.


Quote:
I can give you a half dozen real shootings that I have personally been at in the course of my job that involved 22LR as the weapon. From my experience you need to get the bad guy to open his mouth and shoot him in roof of the mouth or shoot him in the temple to achieve a stop to the threat.
1) A single shot in the rib cage at less than 3ft stopped when it hit the rib. Zero penetration.

2) A single shot to the roof of the mouth (self inflicted) penetrated the entire brain cavity with no exit.

3) 2 shots to the thigh with entrance and exit no bone hit.

4) A single shot to the temple area penetrating the entire brain cavity

5) A single shot to the roof of the mouth with the bullet barely sticking out the top of the skull.

6) A shot to the abdomen area with approx. 6in of penetration and a shot to the pelvic area with a bullet lodged in the pelvis.

Interesting examples. You wouldn't happen to remember the types of gun in each incident, would you?

Point being, the effectiveness of .22 in a handgun is across the board and depends on ammo type, barrel length, revolver vs auto, etc. Shorts in a 2" revolver vs stingers in a 6" auto for an extreme example.
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All handguns
 
FIVETWOSEVEN said:
Even though they both survived, how badly were they injured right after? Were they both down for the count?
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Been a lot of years so my memory is a bit fuzzy but I remember that they both were hospitalized naturally and both lived. Because this happened on post there wasn't much news coverage and I transferred overseas shortly after the incident.
 
Documented 22lr Self Defense Failures
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I remember reading about a man who was asleep on the sofa and his son came in with a .22 pistol and emptied it into his head.

Later the father got up and walked in on his son. The father complained about a headache.

All the bullets ricocheted off his skull.

And I remember Jeff Cooper writing about a cop who was shot in the leg with a .22 magnum revolver. The cop didn't notice the wound till after he cuffed the attacker.

But if you want stats and not stories..

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/06/foghorn/ask-foghorn-22l-for-self-defense/

Deaf
 
gbran said:
It's all about shot placement. I'd rather make a hit with a pellet gun than miss with a 22.
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In a gunfight or high stress situation all you need is the added pressure of hitting your target perfectly in the head while they're moving.
 
As to the dead raccoon with a 15/22, it goes without saying that a .22 rifle will always have more power than a .22 handgun.


Quote:
I can give you a half dozen real shootings that I have personally been at in the course of my job that involved 22LR as the weapon. From my experience you need to get the bad guy to open his mouth and shoot him in roof of the mouth or shoot him in the temple to achieve a stop to the threat.
1) A single shot in the rib cage at less than 3ft stopped when it hit the rib. Zero penetration.

2) A single shot to the roof of the mouth (self inflicted) penetrated the entire brain cavity with no exit.

3) 2 shots to the thigh with entrance and exit no bone hit.

4) A single shot to the temple area penetrating the entire brain cavity

5) A single shot to the roof of the mouth with the bullet barely sticking out the top of the skull.

6) A shot to the abdomen area with approx. 6in of penetration and a shot to the pelvic area with a bullet lodged in the pelvis.

Interesting examples. You wouldn't happen to remember the types of gun in each incident, would you?

Point being, the effectiveness of .22 in a handgun is across the board and depends on ammo type, barrel length, revolver vs auto, etc. Shorts in a 2" revolver vs stingers in a 6" auto for an extreme example.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnhntr
All handguns

Thanks. Any more details that you can remember? Type of gun, etc? Not interrogating or wanting to argue, just curious.
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If I remember correctly and some of these happened 10 or more years ago, 2, 4, and 5 were revolvers that were around 6in barrels. 1 was a newer semi auto and the other two I don't remember but I think one of those was a derringer.
 
Think on this a bit...When you go into the brush following a wild hog that's been wounded do you say, "Hey partner hand me your Browning Buckmark! That's sure is a handy gun and I wanta see how many rounds it takes to put down this 200 pound beast? Maybe it'll run away at the sound of the pop?"

Or would you really desire something a bit more substantial.

Then ask yourself, "Exactly how many armies on this planet issue a .22 caliber handgun as a standard sidearm? How many police departments?"

The .22 is good for many things. If you plan on walking up and shooting a fella in the back of the head with it, well it'll do. But for self defense? There are better options.

Oh and when I was 10 I saw a man shot 6 times in the face with a .22 in an elevator. He chased the man who had shot him across the floor of a department store and stopped because the blood was in his eyes. He lived.

tipoc
 
Considerng the vast number of other, just as economical choices available, I don't understand the rationale of intentionally choosing a .22 for defensive purposes unless it quite simply was all you could handle. I mean, a $130 Hi-point 9mm does what most of us would ever expect a home defense weapon to do, at a price that beats even most .22 pistols. Its not pretty, lightweight, or the newest, flashiest gun out there, but they gerneally go bang when the trigger is pulled, and I'd take a 9mm slug over any .22 ammo on the market (not to mention, at this point in time, 9mm is FAR more common in stores than .22LR is as well)
 
marb4 said:
My question, can anyone point me to a documented case where the 22lr was actually inadequate in stopping an attack?
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I can't but I can name a few who where killed and or seriously wounded enough to put them out of commission.

Robert Kennedy
Ronald Reagan
Gabby Gifford + the others killed that day in Arizona.

And if I dig deeper I'm sure I can come up with thousands more. Now, here's what you have to understand, those shot with a .22 where never expecting it and the person who was doing the shooting had the time to aim and I suspect get very lucky.

The reason why the experts warn again using a .22 for self defense is because in most real life situations of self defense we will not have time for a great aim, and if we have to penetrate any type of heavy clothing it becomes even less effective. Any caliber can work, the problem once you get below a certain caliber it's more luck than anything. Luck should be reserved only for horseshoes & hand-grenades.

There is no way in hell I'm leaving my shack with a .22 or even a .380. Because in my world I don't have the skill, yeah I have some training, on how to shoot a gun all the rest of it will be luck, and I need to know that if I get lucky my caliber has a better than below average rating of I get out alive of what ever jam I find myself in.
Originally my plan called for a .357. that got shelved because I came to realize it would not be practical for me to practice with. So then I went to a 9mm semi-automatic, canned that idea and settle on a .38 special revolver and feel quite confident with it. Remember the goal is not about killing someone but rather 'stopping the threat'.
 
For those bringing up the Hinckley shooting, keep in mind he was using "Incendiary Explosive" bullets called Devastator rounds. This caused issues with everyone involved, especially the medical teams treating the GSW victims.

After shot placement and caliber, bullet construction and type is important as well.
 
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Also sometimes a .22 can penetrate very well. A few years back a man was installing a Coaxial Cable and grew frustrated with his attempts to put a hole through the wall. He decided his firearm was the best tool for the job. He ended up firing through the wall and striking his wife in the head killing her.

This doesn't mean the .22lr is a great round for Personal Protection, it just goes to show that there's going to be a variance to the times it fails to penetrate.
In this case shot placement is what did the wife in.

As a side note to sound less cold about simply stating the facts of this shooting, this was a gross misuse of a firearm and a damn stupid one at that. This poor family suffered greatly because of someone's disrespect for a smaller caliber's ability and disregard everyones safety because of it (at least that was my personal take).

https://www.google.com/search?redir...er-suggest&qsubts=1423739587662&action=devloc
 
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