There are a number of rifle companies offering accuracy guarantees so what does that really mean to you? Do you assume that the rifle will shoot a variety of factory ammunition well enough to meet or exceed the accuracy spec? Is "close enough" good enough? How close do you need to be in order to feel that you got what you paid for? For a company offering a 1 moa guarantee are you going to call customer service if the rifle shoots group after group in the 1.5 moa range with a few sub moa groups thrown in? My take on this is that if a mass produced rifle shoots anywhere close to an inch at 100 yards with factory ammunition I know I will find a number of handloads that will do considerably better. I do like the idea that in a pinch I could use factory loads for hunting so anything close to 1 moa is a bonus, but given the QC of factory ammunition, my expectations are realistic.
What's your expectation when you buy a rifle with an accuracy guarantee?
- Thread starter MCMXI
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Many of the guns specify what ammo they used. Usually NOT Remington CorLocs, even though those do shot "hunting well" through several of my rifles. The biggest issue is these guns are usually fired from a sled when tested. Many SHOOTERS can't shoot MOA.
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MachIVshooter
Member
If I buy a rifle with an accuracy guarantee, it had better be able to do that with the specified ammo AND with handloads using quality components. If a "1 MOA" rifle cannot manage consistent 1 MOA or better with neck sized brass and premium bullets, then it's not a 1 MOA rifle.
d2wing
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My Tikka did well under MOA with off the shelf Hornaday Whitetail ammo. My Del-ton was also under 1 MOA out of the box with factory ammo. My thought are that the guns are tested before they go out. I am a lucky guy because most of the rifles I own shoot pretty well.
I have no expectations of accuracy with factory ammo. Some shoots well, most shoots OK, some is crap. I have found, that in common calibers, ammo can be had that will work fine in a pinch though.
I believe in reloads. I also believe in getting enough rounds through a barrel to get it broke in.
While I can appreciate that companies offer guarantees of accuracy; I'd venture the sample behind the statement is small.
Years ago, I called FNH. I was fishing for a barrel in a roundabout way... Anyhow, I asked the guy what they did with rifles that did not meet the accuracy statement. He said they sent them back, checked them, maybe pull the barrel and check alignment, etc. He said then they re shoot it. That was 15 or so years ago. I was impressed in hearing that.
I believe in reloads. I also believe in getting enough rounds through a barrel to get it broke in.
While I can appreciate that companies offer guarantees of accuracy; I'd venture the sample behind the statement is small.
Years ago, I called FNH. I was fishing for a barrel in a roundabout way... Anyhow, I asked the guy what they did with rifles that did not meet the accuracy statement. He said they sent them back, checked them, maybe pull the barrel and check alignment, etc. He said then they re shoot it. That was 15 or so years ago. I was impressed in hearing that.
dusty14u
Member
I expect it to shoot within moa with decent/good ammo. I would try various ammo out to find what it shoots best as well as handloading once I know approx what weights and velocities do best.
Corn-Picker
Member
I own two rifles that sold with accuracy guarantees; a TC Dimension in 223 and a Weatherby Vanguard S2 in 308. Based on their guarantee I expected that I could find a premium ammo that would yield an average three shot group size under an inch when averaged over a box of ammo. I was not disappointed, the TC and Weatherby are both sub-MOA as advertised, based on my definition.
You ask a good question. If someone is expecting 95%+ of three shot groups to be under an inch, or they're expecting 10 shot groups to average under an inch, then they'll prpbably be disappointed.
You ask a good question. If someone is expecting 95%+ of three shot groups to be under an inch, or they're expecting 10 shot groups to average under an inch, then they'll prpbably be disappointed.
Welding Rod
Member
I expect it do shoot premium match ammo, ie Gold Medal Match, at or under the guarantee for a 5 shot group, essentially every time.
ApacheCoTodd
member
As a manufacturer my rules were simple:
As sold.
Federal Gold... Particular weights.
Rested but not locked in.
Optics? Leupold VariX or better grade.
If it shoots properly for me on return - it's a $58/hr charge for my time and cleaning. Only one valid and unchallenged return... ever. Barrel was "haunted" and had a completely inexplicable key-holing action.
The variables I fought:
Owner thinks he's a robot grade shooter.
And a "Golden Gloves" boxer, Moto-Cross racer etc...
Owner thinks his re-loads are as good or better than the specified Federal. Or figures whatever's on special is fine.
The worst example was a "Match" reloader who sent in 50 rounds of his home brew. 13 different headstamps and even more OALs as well as a couple different projectiles... Even had some nickel plated .223 - where did that come from?
Owner is relying on crap optics or at least poorly mounted optics.
Save me from NcStar and the like! As well as Airsoft grade mounts!
Sure enough, some are Olympic quality shooters and some reloads equal and exceed FGM and some NcStar optics will work fine... for a while. Still...
I know some will chafe at the rigid standards but trust me, without standards, the warranty is a boundary-less puff of wind.
"Sure, MOA... regardless..." Meaningless!
Todd.
As sold.
Federal Gold... Particular weights.
Rested but not locked in.
Optics? Leupold VariX or better grade.
If it shoots properly for me on return - it's a $58/hr charge for my time and cleaning. Only one valid and unchallenged return... ever. Barrel was "haunted" and had a completely inexplicable key-holing action.
The variables I fought:
Owner thinks he's a robot grade shooter.
And a "Golden Gloves" boxer, Moto-Cross racer etc...
Owner thinks his re-loads are as good or better than the specified Federal. Or figures whatever's on special is fine.
The worst example was a "Match" reloader who sent in 50 rounds of his home brew. 13 different headstamps and even more OALs as well as a couple different projectiles... Even had some nickel plated .223 - where did that come from?
Owner is relying on crap optics or at least poorly mounted optics.
Save me from NcStar and the like! As well as Airsoft grade mounts!
Sure enough, some are Olympic quality shooters and some reloads equal and exceed FGM and some NcStar optics will work fine... for a while. Still...
I know some will chafe at the rigid standards but trust me, without standards, the warranty is a boundary-less puff of wind.
"Sure, MOA... regardless..." Meaningless!
Todd.
Steel Horse Rider
Member
In my belief the accuracy of the machine can only be determined if it is well secured to a mount and fired with consistent ammunition, as in no differences in the rounds as to bullet weight , powder type, or powder charge. Once the weapon is free and subject to human frailties it would be hard for me to blame the machine for irregularities.
Have a new lightweight Savage that was grouping my load good enough for hunting but slightly over MOA. This model came without an accuracy guarantee.
But components being as hard to get at they were I stopped there. The thinking was oh well, good enough for my purposes. So just a mild disappointment.
Then poor Winchester primer QC forced a primer brand change.
A partial workup with CCI primers cut the group to well under MOA.
Bonus.
But components being as hard to get at they were I stopped there. The thinking was oh well, good enough for my purposes. So just a mild disappointment.
Then poor Winchester primer QC forced a primer brand change.
A partial workup with CCI primers cut the group to well under MOA.
Bonus.
ontarget
Member
I am sure all of my rifles are capable of far better accuracy than the shooter. I would bet that is the case for the vast majority of shooters. How many times have you seen someone at the range making scope adjustments based on 1 shot?
WestKentucky
Member
In a word... disappointment. My experience is that you can start in the top end of triple digits with a fairly accurate rifle, but gaining marginally in accuracy costs grow exponentially. I haven't seen a whole lot out of a $5-7k that a $5-7 hundred dollar rifle wouldn't do NEARLY as well.
my experience is that most shooters are better than they give themselves credit for, but their rifles suck. poorly manufactured, poorly configured. crappy stocks, horrible triggers and scopes mounted all wrong.
i bring new shooters to the range all the time and they always seem to be able to hit the little targets with my rifles. but the guys that come out and bring their own rifles usually make the same excuses, that the rifle shoots better than they do. that isn't even logical. how could they possibly know that? they can't. it's just some jacked up psychology
if i bought a rifle with an accuracy guarantee, i'd expect it to meet or exceed that with every group and just about every load
i bring new shooters to the range all the time and they always seem to be able to hit the little targets with my rifles. but the guys that come out and bring their own rifles usually make the same excuses, that the rifle shoots better than they do. that isn't even logical. how could they possibly know that? they can't. it's just some jacked up psychology
if i bought a rifle with an accuracy guarantee, i'd expect it to meet or exceed that with every group and just about every load
Andrew Leigh
Member
Exactly this. One must not confuse inherent rifle accuracy with shooter ability. I see this too with people who hand roll their own. They resort to changing components bullets etc. believing that this will magically close their groups but they personally cannot shoot well enough to test the load.
I have a friend who on the range could not get his rifle to shoot under 1.5" with the cheapest of local ammo. Exasperated he asked a young junior Bisley Champion (who happened to be on the range) to have a go, believing that he too would fail, thereby proving the ammo to be poor and the reason for his poor shooting. Three shots later and a perfect hole cutting hole cloverleaf group taught us a lot about what had the greatest effect on accuracy.
ontarget
Member
Taliv, on one hand I agree with you, but seriously, how many shooters do you think know the first thing about a solid shooting position, bone support, breath control, etc.? I see so many shooters that barely know what end of the scope to look through, and I don't care what rifle you hand them they cant shoot sub MOA and for that matter don't even know what MOA means.
gamestalker
member
Since I reload, if by the time I've finished doing multiple developments, ya, 1.5" isn't going to cut it, and they're going to get that rifle back.
Generally speaking, I've always been capable of getting better than 1" from just about any production rig. Usually I can accomplish this with the first or second powder or bullet development, but now and then I might get one that's a bit more finicky.
GS
Generally speaking, I've always been capable of getting better than 1" from just about any production rig. Usually I can accomplish this with the first or second powder or bullet development, but now and then I might get one that's a bit more finicky.
GS
rskent
Member
taliv:
Assuming that you worked up a load with decent bullets I don't see how you could argue that.
Assuming that you worked up a load with decent bullets I don't see how you could argue that.
allaroundhunter
Member
It really isn't that difficult, if you beat around the bush most will never get the picture of what you are trying to say. I just tell them as politely as I can that the gun is shooting fine and we'll within what is to be expected, and provide them with a target that I, personally, shot.
When I tell customers that it is their equipment is usually when I get the most push-back...
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