Why Aren't There More Small Frame 6 Shot Revolvers?

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weblance

weblance

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I just bought a Charter Arms Police Undercover .38 Special. I wanted a 6 shot, small frame snub, for my wife to have, for her peace of mind. She wanted a snub, I wanted it to be a 6 shot. The Police Undercover was the only small 6 shot I could find, except for the old Colt Detective, and I didn't want one of those laying in her sock drawer. The Police Undercover is a small frame(think J frame, or SP101). I started to wonder why there aren't more small frame, 6 shot .38, or .357 revolvers. Now, before someone says... "Well, if there was a demand for them, they would build them..." I don't buy that. I think if Ruger or S&W added a 6 shot cylinder to the SP101 or J Frame, they would sell a ton of them. The frame on my Police Undercover is the same size as those frames, but with a larger cylinder window. Charter Arms says the Police Undercover is built on the .44 Bulldog frame. Well if Charter can manage 2 different small frames, I'm sure Ruger and S&W could also.

So, the question is... Why aren't there more small frame 6 shot revolvers?

Here is the Police Undercover, next to my 638, for scale.

photo%203_zpsiqbtem4i.jpg

photo%204_zpsxragvhdx.jpg
 
Well, I suppose it has a lot to do with the fact that S&W has been manufacturing the J-frame for close to 100 years, and it would cost a few bucks to totally redesign the J-frame, and all the equipment to manufacture it for a market that they already own. Taurus and Charter get the leftovers.

Back in the day, Colt bragged about their extra round. S&W bragged about their J-frame being smaller. There was room for both.

Charter is "the new kid" on the block. They see a few openings where they think they can made inroads and they try to exploit those openings. Pink guns, purple guns, tiger striped guns, left handed guns, and a small, six shot revolver...that part of the market that Colt used to fill.

Being a smaller, newer company, it's a lot easier for Charter to turn the ship than Smith & Wesson.
 
The most critical dimension on a small concealed carry gun is the width. This is why single stack .380's and 9mm's are very popular.

More shots in a revolver mean a bigger cylinder and a wider gun in a format that's already substantially wider than a semi-auto.

As an example, the Ruger LCR (5 shot .38 revolver) has a width of 1.28 inches while the Ruger LC9 (8 shot semi auto) has a width of only .9 inches. Height is the same on both (4.5"), but unfortunately the revolver is also .5" longer (6.5" vs 6.0"). Your Charter is even wider, at 1.45".

Since most of these small guns are sold as concealed carry guns, the market for the extra shot in a revolver is not very large.
 
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Yup. I carry my LCR in my pocket in a pocket holster. Width is at the max. While I'd love another round, the 6 shot cylinder would be just too thick for pocket carry, for me.
 
The March 2015 issue of the American Rifleman has an article on Weapons for ladies. pg-47.

Mentioned is the ,"new S&W Ladysmith revolvers." Good read with pic`s.

If you and your wife are not "locked" in on the choice of a revolver, this may give you another option.

Let her read it as she`s the one wanting the weapon.

If you not an NRA member ,then you`ll have to find a copy.
 
pbearperry said:
Plus small revolvers don't look cool like autos when you shoot them sideways.;)
Click to expand...
Five shot revolvers are stronger because the cylinder indexing notches don't line up with the cylinders. This probably isn't salient in .38, but it might be in .357 if your trying to minimize the cylinder diameter and codify corporate legal beagles.
Pbearperry nailed it. The herd is stampeding to teeny autos, like they saw in a spy movie, only now there fantastic plastic.
 
As an old cowboy told me one time. You cain't stuff 6 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag.:evil:
 
S&W tried that. They enlarged the frame a little bit and created the C frame model 73. A 6 shot .38 to compete with the Colt Detective Special. It didn't work very well, all but a few were destroyed.
 
Colt's D-frame revolvers (such as the Detective Special, Police Positive Special, Cobra, Diamondback, etc.) have the cylinder bolt (part that locks the chamber in line with the bore) offset so the notch in the cylinder is located in the thick part of the web between the chambers. Without looking I believe this is also true with Charter Arms.

Smith & Wesson and Ruger have the cylinder stop - by whatever name - located in the center of the frame with the cylinder's notches directly under the chamber(s).

All of this could be changed, but today's market is more directed toward small .380 and 9mm pistols, and no revolvers can compete with them on price points.

As an aside: Colt 6-shot, D-frame revolvers in pristine condition condition from a cosmetic perspective are commanding out-of-this-world prices, but those with worn finishes from being "carried much and shot little" that are in perfect mechanical condition with clean bores and chambers, are generally not. They, in my view, represent the very best 6-shot, high quality snubby available. As has been pointed out, those from other makers are bigger and heavier.
 
Five shot revolvers are stronger because the cylinder indexing notches don't line up with the cylinders.
Click to expand...
Stoky's on the mark. This is very true. And it holds true with any number of chambers. If the gun has an even number of chambers, the bolt notch is ON one of them making it a weak spot. If the gun has an odd number of chambers, the notch is BETWEEN two of them.

(Whoops. Now I see that Fuff already covered it as well.)
 
Good call, RealGun. Going with 9mm adds roughly 225 additional fps to the bullet velocity over .38 Special +P without lengthening the barrel. At 22 ounces on a Bulldog frame, this may be the perfect substitute for, indeed improvement over, a three-inch snub nose K frame. Six in the hand and five in BUG reserve, just like back in the day, before to coming of the auto jammers that led mankind into the plastic abyss.

I have read some favorable comments lately concerning Charter Arms indicating they have emerged from the abyss of inferior quality and workmanship they were caught up in. This is a nice looking gun on the face of it:

9mmPitbull.jpg
 
Potential problem with 9mm revolvers, especially lightweight ones, is bullet jump. No cannelure, no crimp, on 9mm. Under heavy recoil the heavy bullet stays where it is (inertia), and the cartridge case pulls to the rear with the recoil. Newton, etc. Gotta be real careful or the cylinder can just get tied right up. Check that last round in the cylinder to see if it is pulling out of the case, after every shot. If it is you need to try different ammo until you find one that won't do that.
 
Would you expect a lack of case tension to be common on 9mm ammo? I don't always shoot my reloads, which I can control. I understand the bullet jump theory but have to wonder if it is a very real occurrence. Seems to me that 9mm cases are sized pretty darned tightly and not expanded for insertion much except for slight belling. Lead would be even tighter.

Would a plated bullet be of special concern, or is this a general theory?

Now I've done it...we're off in the weeds.:eek:
 
If you can find one..

A Colt Agent is smaller and lighter than a J frame Smith but holds 6 rounds of 38 Spl. Not a bright or deep blue finish. A perfect deep cover revolver.

ZAX2607A-G-F1B-H1.jpg
 
Before 66 the Agent had a shorter grip than it's brother the cobra. Otherwise they were identical. Post 66 the only difference between the two was the rollmark on the barrel. Both had aluminum alloy frames for lightness. I agree with old fluff, shooter grade Detectives, Cobras, and Agents often are reasonably priced excellent revolvers.
 
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The issue with 9mm cartridges is that the case has a very slight taper which makes it difficult to achieve sufficient case neck tension along the entire length of the bullet. Most of the tension will be only at the mouth of the case which is not sufficient to stop bullets from pulling forward or setting back. Bullet pull is a very real problem with ultra light revolvers using ammo which does not have sufficient neck tension (regardless of crimp) and setback is also a problem when people insist on rechambering the same round over and over (which a lot of people do today). The factory builds ammo with the intention that it will only be chambered one time. Rechamber it repeatedly - and most factory ammo will set back.
 
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I wish Smith & Wesson could change the lookwork up slightly to have the cylinder stop offset like on the Colt DA in order to fit 6 rounds of .38 special in a smaller gun than the K-frame.

I'd love to see an aierweight version as well!
 
I'm with the poster above that said to look at 32 caliber. 32 long is marginal at best, which is where the .32 got a it's bad reputation. 32 H&R mag or .327fed are more than enough to handle social work of any kind. Getting even smaller you can get into 30carbine or even 22 mag and still have 6 or more shots out of a small revolver. Several companies tried the big 32s but the cartridges never got a big marketshare and have since died off in all but the undercoverette. The 22 mag is still in production through most manufacturers. The smith bodyguard revolver in 22 mag seems like a wonderful gun as does the 22 mag lcr.
 
Ive decided Im going to buy a second Police Undercover 38. I really like this little revolver, and the extra round it carries is the reason Im going to make one of these my winter jacket carry, and take the dog out at night revolver.

I really want one of these for my wife, but I want one for myself also. Im going to find a factory SD load that shoots to POA, while I still have the spurred hammer installed, then once Im happy with the POI and accuracy, Im going to install the DAO spurless hammer that Charter offers for $25.

Here is another picture for scale... up against my DAO SP101 .357

photo%205_zpszw9tvlx3.jpg
 
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