Possible new twist on 9mm vs. .45

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All handguns are equally ineffective in my book. Shooting someone with either one of those will only stop the aggressor if

1) the aggressor doesn't want to fight

2) It kills the person

Since neither one of those rounds (or 40, 10, 357's, etc) equal the ballistics of a rifle, they are much more likely to stop the fight for reason #1 which to me means they are equally ineffective. That's just one opinion of many though.
 
The Ellifritz study, when you dig into it, shows that some .32 and .380 rounds have surprising effectiveness, too.

What isn't really ever known or shown in any of these studies is how good the hand on the gun really was and what role it played in getting things to come to a successful ending.

A central nervous system hit from just about any center-fire round will be a stopper. If it's not, even a .45 won't be enough -- 'cause the other guy (who may have a gun or knife) is still free to do you harm.

As has been said above and elsewhere -- its all about shot placement.
 
I read something about a known trainer claiming 1 round of .45 auto is about 10% better than 1 round of 9mm in terms of stopping power/knockdown power. This is comparing the same bullet (ex: fmj vs. fmj or h.p. vs. h.p.).

Any opinions on how much better in terms of percent how much better the .45 is?

I saw the same thing in an email newsletter from another gun forum. IIRC that trainer did not believe that 30 years ago when he was drinking the .45ACP Kool-Aid mix Jeff Cooper concocted. I think that trainer has been a proponent of the G19 for almost as long as the G19 has existed. Funny how people's opinions change when they stop believing dogma and start observing reality. BTW, 30 years ago some people were still believing Jeff Cooper's nonsense that the 9mm is only 45.63% as effective as the .45 ACP. (source - Jeff Cooper on Handguns).
 
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But a 9mm typically holds 60% more ammo. Now what?
That's true but not really relevant to this discussion. The capacity can vary greatly depending on the gun. The real question is if 45 acp offers anything in its terminal ballistics that makes it more effective than a 9mm. Capacity is a different topic.
 
I saw the same thing in an email newsletter from another gun forum. IIRC that trainer did not believe that 30 years ago when he was drinking the .45ACP Kool-Aid mix Jeff Cooper concocted. I think that trainer has been a proponent of the G19 for almost as long as the G19 has existed. Funny how people's opinions change when they stop believing dogma and start observing reality. BTW, 30 years ago some people were still believing Jeff Cooper's nonsense that the .45 ACP was 63% more effective than 9mm (source - Jeff Cooper on Handguns).
I still prefer 45 acp for a few reasons, but 63%? Doubt it. Not sure how Cooper came to that conclusion. It's just silly.
 
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I still prefer 45 acp for a few reasons, but 63%? Doubt it. Not sure how Cooper came to that conclusion. It's just silly.

The 63% figure was incorrectly posted by me in the previous post. What I intended to write was "the 9mm is only 45.63% as effective as the .45ACP". The 45.63% figure is taken from the Relative Stopping Power (Hatcher Scale) that is printed in Cooper on Handguns. Cooper came to that conclusion using Julian Hatcher's mathematical formula for calculating "Relative Stopping Power" (bullet weight, bullet style, shape factor, bore area, muzzle velocity) and his own formula (bullet weight, muzzle velocity, bore sectional area) he called his "Short Form".
 
When people ask me about 9 vs 40 vs 45 for carry/defensive pistol, I usually tell them to try different pistols and buy the pistol they feel most comfortable and can shoot most accurately fast.

A hit with a 380 is better than a miss with a 44 Mag.

Between 9mm G26 and 45ACP G30, the G26 was more comfortable to carry due to size and weight.

When I found I could shoot G27 comparably well as G26 for the same size, it replaced the G26 with +1 Pearce mag base for same capacity.
 
The 63% figure was incorrectly posted by me in the previous post. What I intended to write was "the 9mm is only 45.63% as effective as the .45ACP". The 45.63% figure is taken from the Relative Stopping Power (Hatcher Scale) that is printed in Cooper on Handguns. Cooper came to that conclusion using Julian Hatcher's mathematical formula for calculating "Relative Stopping Power" (bullet weight, bullet style, shape factor, bore area, muzzle velocity) and his own formula (bullet weight, muzzle velocity, bore sectional area) he called his "Short Form".
I love it. As long as we are going to bring General Julian Hatcher's thoroughly discredited "Relative Stopping Power Index" of the 1930s back from the dead, lets throw another totally bogus rating scheme into the mix.

The "Relative Incapacitation Index" was brought to us by our own Department of Justice in the mid 1970s but they were still wasting the taxpayers' dollars on it in the 1980s. It was based largely on the temporary wound cavity observed in shot-up ballistic gel. This system apparently rated 9mm 115gr FMJ twice as effective as .45 ACP 230gr FMJ.

So the Hatcher index showed that 9mm was 45.63% as effective as .45 ACP, but the RII showed that 9mm was 200% as effective as .45 ACP.

So the correct answer is that 9mm is actually (wait for it ... (200+45.63)/2= 122.82)) ... 22.82% MORE effective than .45 caliber ACP!!!

Now that's science, folks.
 
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All handguns are equally ineffective in my book. Shooting someone with either one of those will only stop the aggressor if

1) the aggressor doesn't want to fight

2) It kills the person

Since neither one of those rounds (or 40, 10, 357's, etc) equal the ballistics of a rifle, they are much more likely to stop the fight for reason #1 which to me means they are equally ineffective. That's just one opinion of many though.

Gotta say I agree. When it comes to civilian self defense, I would wager that a .44 shooting blanks would be nearly as effective as either of these rounds if the objective is to end the attack.
 
Something needs to be said here.

A number of folks keep repeating, and repeating in other caliber war threads, "Shot placement" as an answer. This thread and other caliber vs caliber threads are NOT about what is the most important factor in a defensive shooting. In that context, I agree with you guys that hitting your target, and hitting them in a debilitating spot is the most important factor. However, in a caliber debate, in order to actually answer the question asked, we have to assume the same target, and the SAME shot placement.

Basically if I get attacked by a 200 lb guy and shoot him in the same spot, which cartridge will stop that attack faster? The question may in fact be moot as any common defense cartridge may work the same and at the same speed. But my point is that in the context of the OP's question, shot placement is not a correct or appropriate answer.

It's like if someone were to ask you "Which off road tires will give me the best performance in mud?" and people answer, "Gear ratio." It makes no sense because the question was about tires. Yes it's relevant to off road driving, but it doesn't answer the question asked.

I guess that really brings us back to the fact that numbers associated with defensive shootings are in fact bogus. It's impossible to glean any relevant knowledge from pure statistics without any knowledge of the conditions in which the data was collected and compiled.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics..... Mark Twain
 
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Something needs to be said here.

A number of folks keep repeating, and repeating in other caliber war threads, "Shot placement" as an answer. This thread and other caliber vs caliber threads are NOT about what is the most important factor in a defensive shooting. In that context, I agree with you guys that hitting your target, and hitting them in a debilitating spot is the most important factor. However, in a caliber debate, in order to actually answer the question asked, we have to assume the same target, and the SAME shot placement.

Basically if I get attacked by a 200 lb guy and shoot him in the same spot, which cartridge will stop that attack faster? The question may in fact be moot as any common defense cartridge may work the same and at the same speed. But my point is that in the context of the OP's question, shot placement is not a correct or appropriate answer.

It's like if someone were to ask you "Which off road tires will give me the best performance in mud?" and people answer, "Gear ratio." It makes no sense because the question was about tires. Yes it's relevabt to off road driving, but it doesn't answer the question asked.
That's a pretty good point, actually. I like the analogy.

I don't know many people that would say that a 9mm is MORE effective than a 45, but I know many that would say that it is not enough to matter.
I think that if you shot me with a 9, a 40, and a 45, I would not be able to tell you which was which. I would just know that I got shot.

For me it comes down to which cartridge is "enough". I also don't trust myself enough yet, to make good followup shots as quickly with a 45 as a 9mm. And to me, that is more important that the extra wound channel created by the 45. Also, it happens that the gun I prefer to carry (weight and size) is a 9mm.
 
Basically if I get attacked by a 200 lb guy and shoot him in the same spot, which cartridge will stop that attack faster? The question may in fact be moot as any common defense cartridge may work the same and at the same speed. But my point is that in the context of the OP's question, shot placement is not a correct or appropriate answer.

It's like if someone were to ask you "Which off road tires will give me the best performance in mud?" and people answer, "Gear ratio." It makes no sense because the question was about tires. Yes it's relevabt to off road driving, but it doesn't answer the question asked.

And don't forget the driver when talking about off-road performance. That's the factor that isn't addressed in that analysis and the same human factor is almost always ignored in the gun caliber result analyses. Here's a link to a site addressing some of Jim Cirillo's suggestions. He died recently, but long retired and without losing a gunfight. His points argue against a lot of what we are taught about using a handgun in self-defense. http://moderncombatandsurvival.com/featured/jim-cirillo-3-confessions-of-modern-day-gunfighter/ Much of his success was achieved using a J-frame S&W revolver -- but he carried several, so that reloading didn't slow him. No .40s or .45s for him.

There's no question that a BIGGER hole is better -- but that assumes that you haven't hit the central nervous system and your opponent is still able to fight back. If he's still able to function, even if he's dying, he can still kill you.

When you look at results from the various studies available to us, you simply don't know whether a 9mm hit or .45 caliber hit is more effective based on those very generalized data sets: they tell us nothing, really, about the "driver," the context of the shooting (i.e., whether the bad guy was shooting back, the distance between the antagonists, the time of day, the proficiency of the shooters, or how long it took, etc.)

A lot of the available data is based on very small samples and the samples themselves were acquired using differing techniques. Why is that? Because there really aren't THAT many shootings in a given year, and even fewer that are given proper forensic analysis that is available to someone doing such a study. You can look at gel tests, but ballistic gelatin isn't the same as human tissue that has a rib cage in front of it, that is covered with different layers of clothing, etc. Some such tests try to simulate a better human proxy -- but that is seldom mentioned in these discussions.

I'd argue that the only answer that is really relevant isn't really a caliber answer, but one that only YOU can provide. That question has two parts: 1) which round do you consistently shoot best, and 2) can you do so under pressure, when you're scared, maybe moving, and perhaps concerned about companions who must be pushed out of the way, given protection, etc.

Jim Cirillo thought one of the most important parts of readying yourself for a gun fight was FORCE ON FORCE training, even if it meant using those inexpensie airsoft pistols. (He preferred better tools.) An acquaintance who is a trainer with Special Ops troops at Ft. Bragg says these guy (many of who are Operators) use a lot of force-on-force sessions, with proper eye protection. I've seen this guy covered with tiny bruises from the rubber bullets fired from service weapons. (He said he freaked his doctor out once when he went to have his shoulder checked for a rotator cuff problem; the doctor saw all the bruises and was concerned his patient was having some sort of subtle blood/kidney/liver problems.)

Shoot the biggest caliber you shoot well, and practice. And hope you can find and keep your cool. Bigger is better, IF you can hit something with that "bigger." But be honest enough to concede that "bigger" assumes that you're hoping to live long enough that the bad guy bleeds out or gives up the fight before you do.

.
 
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in an hd scenario I prefer 15 rnds 9mm over 8 rnds 45 and i can buy 1000 rnds of 9mm for 190 € and I have to pay 350 for 1000 rnds of 45, so for the same budget I get almost twice the training.

and training is one of the keys to shot placement
 
All handguns are equally ineffective in my book. Shooting someone with either one of those will only stop the aggressor if

1) the aggressor doesn't want to fight

2) It kills the person

That first sentence is hopefully not thought out. I mean do you think a .25acp and a .500 S&W are "equally ineffective"
In fairness this is the Autoloaders section so I guess I should ask if you think a .25 and a 10mm are equally ineffective, or the .50ae for that matter.

I mean come on, you have to admit they're not "equality ineffective"
 
I love it. As long as we are going to bring General Julian Hatcher's thoroughly discredited "Relative Stopping Power Index" of the 1930s back from the dead, lets throw another totally bogus rating scheme into the mix.

The "Relative Incapacitation Index" was brought to us by our own Department of Justice in the mid 1970s but they were still wasting the taxpayers' dollars on it in the 1980s. It was based largely on the temporary wound cavity observed in shot-up ballistic gel. This system apparently rated 9mm 115gr FMJ twice as effective as .45 ACP 230gr FMJ.

So the Hatcher index showed that 9mm was 45.63% as effective as .45 ACP, but the RII showed that 9mm was 200% as effective as .45 ACP.

So the correct answer is that 9mm is actually (wait for it ... (200+45.63)/2= 122.82)) ... 22.82% MORE effective than .45 caliber ACP!!!

Now that's science, folks.

Thanks for bringing up the R.I.I. When it was published it got me thinking how can two different set of individuals who supposedly are experts come up with statistics that are so wildly different. This event was the first time I started to question the continued drinking of the .45ACP Kool-Aid that was so popular at the time. I was not convinced that 9mm was as good, let alone better, than .45ACP but I began to wonder how good could the .45ACP really be. Especially when even Cooper admitted that a bullet from a .357Mag was just as good as a .45ACP even though only velocity was the significant difference between a .357Mag and a 9mm bullet.
 
Walt Sherrill mentioned Jim Cirillo so I think something additional should be mentioned. In Cirillo's book "Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights" he states that for a firearm chosen for concealment he recommends the Glock 27 .40S&W, and if he was still on the NYPD Stakeout Squad he would use a Glock 21 .45ACP as a primary and G27 as backup. Those recommendations however are not the two pistols he mentions as his present favorite carry guns. He lists those as an unspecified S&W DAO .40 and a Glock 23 .40.
 
All handguns are equally ineffective in my book.

Just the kind of gibberish anti-gun group would love to hear from gun owners. :rolleyes:

If they are all ineffective, then why carry a gun?
 
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Truth of the matter is that there are multiple factors in pistol bullet effectiveness, and there is no way to measure all of it.

What ammo is what % effective would vary with how it is measured.

More powerful ammo, correctly constructed, do more damage. Whether if the increased damage is significant or not is debatable.
 
in an hd scenario I prefer 15 rnds 9mm over 8 rnds 45 and i can buy 1000 rnds of 9mm for 190 € and I have to pay 350 for 1000 rnds of 45, so for the same budget I get almost twice the training.

and training is one of the keys to shot placement

I'll stick with .45 and I reload so I can shoot cheaper then store bought 9mm. Everyone should look into reloading. If I want capacity I'll use one of my XD45's that hold 13+1.
 
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