.327 Federal Magnum vs Body Armor, Tokarev comparison

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jehicks87

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I have searched the internet extensively and have not found the answer to this question. The 7.62x25 Tokarev is well-known for penetrating body armor. Reputable gun review sites have confirmed and demonstrated this fact. Then along comes the .327 Federal Magnum. While not particularly well-received by the general public, it certainly piqued my curiosity. On paper, it seems to be a Tok round, but fired from a revolver, though the (typically heavier) bullets are a few thousandths wider than the Tokarev's. The speed certainly seems right there with the Tok as well. Leading to my question...

Has anybody personally seen a .327 fired at a ballistic vest, and if so what were the results? Does it penetrate as well as the little Tok, or is it just wide enough, and just slow enough, to be stopped by class IIIa vests and below? I'm not asking for conjecture, But would appreciate greatly any real-world testing to which someone could point me. Thank you, gentlemen.
 
I have no concrete answers, but am assuming the 327 Federal can meet or exceed Tokarev performance against body armor or steel. It was one of the reasons for selling my CZ-52 and getting a 327 Fed to replace it. I would think it would shoot the .309, .311 and normal .312 bullets just fine.

The 7.62x25 is too limiting of a cartridge and a semi auto is fussy about bullet weight and speed. You have many more options with a 327 revolver, including 123gr .311 steel core (if you can find any) assuming they stabilize, and 110gr barnes solids.
 
Much ado about the TOK shooting through body armor in the first place.
There is nothing magical about it.

It is just a little .30 cal bullet going slower then a .30 Carbine.

And a .30 Carbine out of an 18" barrel will not penetrate modern body armor, or any decent Level IIIA or Level III ( rifle) class vest.

There is also no reason to think a .327 Federal would penetrate anything a .357 SIG or .357 Magnum wouldn't hit harder, and blow a bigger hole through.

rc
 
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S&B lists 7.62x25 85gr FMJ from a 4.75" bbl at 1647 FPS at the muzzle. BBTI clocked .327 Fed. 100 gr JSP Federal Ammo factory load at 1701 fps from their 5" test bbl. They got 1422 FPS with the same load from a 3" bbl Ruger SP-101. I see little to no functional difference in the calibers if one were to handload similar weight and construction bullets.
 
I thought the 30 carbine and 7.62 Tok would penetrate level II armor (as will the fastest 38 super, 327 sig, and perhaps +p+ 9mm rounds). Level IIIA is safe from any of those, but I thought most cops wear Level II since Level III is too bulky. So they watch out for those particular rounds.
 
Mmmmmm?

How does a cop watch out for those 'particular' rounds???

If a cop knew beforehand what caliber they were going to get shot with?
He or she would probably be somewhere else behind cover.

Nobody knows what caliber incoming fire is until they are on the ground, or win the fight.

rc
 
It is of no consequence to me which style of body armor policemen wear, as that is *not* the direction in which I wanted/want this thread to go. It's more of an academic question, but with practical applications.

Ugaarguy, those figures are kind of what led me to this thought in thecfield place. Though there are many examples of people shooting through soft armor and Kevlar helmets, a la ACH, I have not seen or heard of one instance of doing so with a .327, though they seem very similar ballistically.
 
Well IIIA is rated to stop 9 mm FMJ at ~1,400 fps which covers handgun and subgun. 7.62mm out of an M1 carbine at 1900 fps is a tall order based on that spec. I'm not aware of any field tests of IIIA against the Tok, .327 or M1c.

I wouldn't be surprised if the IIIA also stopped it since the ratings are what it is guaranteed to stop, though the backface deformation, especially on the M1 carbine, would be excessive and perhaps lethal on its own.
 
It is just a little .30 cal bullet going slower then a .30 Carbine.

And a .30 Carbine out of an 18" barrel will not penetrate modern body armor, or any decent Level IIIA or Level III ( rifle) class vest.
Click to expand...
One additional factor that I don't know has been looked at, is how rigid the various bullets in these chamberings are. Is the jacket on a x25 typically thicker than a 30 Carbine or Magnum? If so, it truly may deliver energy more efficiently to barriers upon impact, and waste less energy as it penetrates in the form of deformation. A lightweight bullet of 30cal can't really 'grow' much without seriously impacting its ability to punch through stuff, so a stiffer bullet could possibly have markedly better performance at the borderline ~1600fps region (much slower and Kevlar can react fast enough to dissipate impact force over a broader area to stop a projectile)

TCB
 
rcmodel said:
Mmmmmm?

How does a cop watch out for those 'particular' rounds???

If a cop knew beforehand what caliber they were going to get shot with?
He or she would probably be somewhere else behind cover.

Nobody knows what caliber incoming fire is until they are on the ground, or win the fight.

rc
Click to expand...
It is when they confiscate one from someone. Oh, that's a cop killer gun you have there boy. Probably gets them some rougher handling... I think it was a Georgia (Atlanta?) PD I heard that from.
 
There are not really any 327 rounds available of the right type for anti-armor applications anyway, excepting the BB 130gr hard cast and those are flat. They are all SP or HP which are notoriously rubbish against soft armor regardless of caliber. You would need to roll your own. However, putting a round nose, 85 gr FMJ Tok bullet on top of a max loaded 327 should be at least as good as standard Tok or 30 carbine from a handgun.

Perhaps one of the 7+" Single sevens would give enough extra fps to be a better penetrator?
 
I have a 327 Fed mag revolver so I looked at this thread.
Who really cares about penetrating body armor?

The 7.62 with a steel core bullet may be a different animal altogether so I think the bullet makes a difference rather than what caliber it's shot from.
 
Rule: Well, theoretically (which I didn't want to get into, being more interested in the empirical)... The style of bullet, sectional density, velocity, *and* caliber all combine to make a caliber an effective penetrator.

As far as who cares... I care. That's why I asked. Who really cares about 1000m+ shots? Do you go into those threads dedicated to making 1km shots and ask that?
 
Sounds like fodder to that brings the wrong attention.
 
Perhaps I should have said Why care? It is the type of bullet combined with the velocity that makes any projectile penetrate. So put a steel bullet in any of the high velocity rounds and you have your answer.
I just find questions about penetrating body armor unusual unless you are in the line of duty and only relevant if you would be on the receiving end.
 
"I just find questions about penetrating body armor unusual unless you are in the line of duty and only relevant if you would be on the receiving end."
In the case of Tokarev, it's warranted, due to the mystique surrounding the round's penetrative capabilities. It would be interesting to know that the mythical performance is presently duplicated by other options, is all. There's nothing more magical or morbid about the specifics of defeating Kevlar than lung-shot dynamics in the hunting forums (which are much more disturbing-sounding, both in topic and attitude, at times).

Think of it this way; if you know how something works, you can better solve whatever problems it represents. For instance; by knowing that velocity is basically the determining factor for soft-armor penetration, we gunnies realize that most of the armor-piercing ammo rules are woefully ineffective and misguided at protecting officer('s vests) from firearms that might used against them (or rather, their vests)

"The 7.62 with a steel core bullet may be a different animal altogether"
What with all the Tokarev pistols out there, steel core 7.62x25 isn't that big of a player in this country (ETA: 1$/round --lawd 'a mercy!)

TCB
 
My main thing about this, which is why I tried to steer the conversation away from the post about what types of armor most officers wear, is purely entertainment. Because I like guns. I like shooting. It is cool to me that (as has been pointed out above) the Tok has earned an almost "mythical" reputation for being such a good penetrator because, hey, it zips through gear designed specifically to stop things from penetrating said gear. Kind of like a guy who really likes diesels might want to build a low-10's drag diesel... Is it practical? Does it serve any real purpose (unless you're a firefight who happens to live 1/4 mile from a fire, etc.)? The answer is, obviously, "no." But people spend tens of thousands of dollars doing so. So me wondering if a hot new cartridge can do the things an 80 year old cartridge can do isn't all that odd, at least I don't think.

And fwiw, I am "on the line of duty" and have worn body armor with regularity pulling missions in parts of the world where former soviet arms (to include the Tok) are used almost exclusively... But we were more worried about the dudes shooting knocker rounds out of dragonov rifles. However, I don't think that makes it less unusual to ask "does a .327 match or exceed 7.62 Tok" than Joe Schmo because I don't find it all that unusual in the first place. I just wanted to know if anybody had tried it.

Edited to add: I am also not asking "how would one make a bullet capable of penetrating vests." I have no desire to go shoot up vests, or people wearing vests, or people, period. It's just a comparison to a round that looks ballistically inferior, has been around since before WWII, and is famous for really only one thing. I can't believe I even have to put a disclaimer like that on this.
 
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The Tokarev's ability to penetrate body armor is greatly exaggerated. I've seen plenty of tests where it failed to penetrate a bpv. The steel core Bulgarian ammo in the pink paper wrapper sometimes penetrates but sometimes it doesn't and that stuff is so hot that I will not shoot it in my guns. I have 5 16 round packs sitting in my drawer gathering dust as I write this.
 
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