Green Tip and the Overton Window

txblackout said:

Keep in mind there is no such "being" as government. There are only people acting on behalf of us. Government doesn't want to ban guns but government employees who are generally liberals do.

Some liberals like guns but the vast majority do not.

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What defines a "Liberal"? I strongly support RKBA and Abortion Rights. Does that make me a Liberal or a Conservative? I support not just a return to The Draft but an increase to 100% participation of both sexes in a Draft for National Service in the Military or in their communities. Does that make me a Conservative? I support inclusion of all genders and sexual orientations in the Military. Does that make me a Liberal?

There are far more people being labeled as Liberals that support or are neutral about the RKBA than most people on the Right-wing imagine and unfortunately alienate with their rhetoric.

barnbwt said:

Bringing this way, way, way back to the topic of gun issues, the fact is that the vast majority of today's migrants --and the vast majorities of those that many are proposing to introduce intentionally in massive numbers-- do not yet value the concepts of civilian gun ownership nor their duty to uphold the ideals that formed the nation they seek to live in. TCB

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Maybe in your neck of the woods and perhaps communities where the immigrants are isolated from the majority. My experience in Metropolitan Phoenix is that recent immigrants from Latin America relish the RKBAs and show-up frequently at Ben Avery, Scottsdale Gun Club, and C2 Tactical, gun ranges. The Crossroads of the West Gun Shows have many immigrants attending. My experience is Latin American immigrants, both residents and new citizens, often appreciate the RKBA even more than most Americans. As far as upholding the ideals of the nation they seek to live in; in working toward citizenship they learn and remember more about the Constitution than the vast majority of native born remember or ever knew.

All this talk of mass migration being disruptive is old hat. The same concerns and fears have been expressed throughout the history of America with every wave of immigration. Since it does not appear the Germans, Swedes, Irish, Chinese, etc., have damaged the country it is doubtful the Latin Americans will. They came here to be more like us not to make us more like them. The best thing that could happen to support the RKBA is an infusion of people previously denied that right and do not ignore its importance like most Americans.

Maybe in your neck of the woods and perhaps communities where the immigrants are isolated from the majority. My experience in Metropolitan Phoenix is that recent immigrants from Latin America relish the RKBAs and show-up frequently at Ben Avery, Scottsdale Gun Club, and C2 Tactical, gun ranges

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So true. I see immigrants/foreigners at the range(s) I go to... nearly every time I go. I occasionally go shooting with a Chinese national (software developer). In her country, recreational shooting is where you go to a range and they give you ONE .22lr bullet and armed military watch you close while you shoot. You shoot it and that's that. She comes over here and I (with me shooting as a guest at HER club) hand her , among other firearms, a Chinese SKS and a full magazine of cartridges. Oh, the irony! Foreigners love to come over here and shoot.

BTW, I live in one of the most Right-wing, affluent, cities in the country. My home is within walking distance of a statue honoring Barry Goldwater, and I frequently drive on Goldwater Blvd. I also have a home in Thousand Oaks, California that is a 10 minute drive from the Ronald Reagan Library in Semi Valley. So please understand I am very aware of what is being said around Right-wing watercoolers.

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And I'm a short drive away from a public statue of Lenin, if that has anything to do with the subject at hand. You write a lot of words that don't give you any more insight than the rest of us. Or perhaps more incite than insight, as the mark of an agitator.

I agree that we shouldn't turn away supporters, but the further left you go, the law of diminishing returns kick in. There is no there there.

Dain Bramage said:

And I'm a short drive away from a public statue of Lenin, if that has anything to do with the subject at hand. You write a lot of words that don't give you any more insight than the rest of us. Or perhaps more incite than insight, as the mark of an agitator.

I agree that we shouldn't turn away supporters, but the further left you go, the law of diminishing returns kick in. There is no there there.

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Sounds like you have more in common with Lenin than proximity to his statue. Like Vladimir you decide disagreeable words make someone an agitator inciting unapproved thoughts and actions. Fortunately you do not have the power to have me shot or banished to the Gulag for disloyalty to The Party. Tovarich Dain Bramage, where pray tell is there a statue of V.I. Lenin in Arlington, WA?

So, that last post, is that the manic or depressive coming out?



Oh, and that's not me in the picture. I'd make the Fremont Lenin look more svelte.

Dain Bramage said:

So, that last post, is that the manic or depressive coming out?

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Yep, yer talk'n more and more like Vlad, implying that anyone who disagrees with you is mentally incompetent.

Our statue of Barry is equally unattractive, but at least set in appropriate historical setting.

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/20771307.jpg

Intersection of Tatum and Lincoln (another of those Leftist Republicans ) roads, Paradise Valley, Arizona.

...implying that anyone who disagrees with you is mentally incompetent

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Good job, buddy! I knew you could do it!

That is showing much more cognitive alignment with my comment than the previous foray claiming I wanted to have you shot.

By the way, nice Alinsky. Throw out more and more incendiery comments, then go full-daffy on anyone's minor counterthrust. The only problem, well, it makes you seem daffy.

Sounds like you have more in common with Lenin..

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..to have me shot or banished to the Gulag..

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...extreme Right-wing delusional rhetoric!

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...water-coolers are filled with psychotropic Kool-Aid.

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I call Godwinsky's Law

^^^^That's funny !

Good, then we can depart as friends.

You make some good points about inclusion, before all the hate Righty kicks in.

Keep in mind there is no such "being" as government. There are only people acting on behalf of us. Government doesn't want to ban guns but government employees who are generally liberals do.

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Gov't employees do what they are tasked with just like any other employees. I've worked in Gov't and I'm not liberal by most standards. They are no different than employees working for a corporation. There is a difference between an employee and a official who may be elected or appointed. The officials are supposed to be responsive to the voters. If you live in an area that has more liberals of course they will pander to those voters first because that's a larger base for campaign contributions.

The adm. is a lot like a snake, 95% of the snake goes where the head tells it to go. If the head leads it onto a highway the tail doesn't say I'm not going because it's too dangerous. The ATF goes where the head tells it to go. That's why we had Ruby Ridge, Waco and F&F. Someone instructed the ATF to do that stuff. When I worked in Gov't one of the most used phrases when a manager got some bad news was "that's the first I've heard about that" translated, I had nothing to do with it. Field agents just don't dream up these operations while they sleep. Somebody very high in the chain of command instructed them to do it, maybe not in detail but in scope and objective.

And the OP is correct. The ATF and many other federal agencies have turned on a large segment of the population because they have been instructed to do just that. Nothing has changed in the last 50 years to warrant that except paranoia on the gov't's part and a total distrust of the citizens of this country. Why else would they want to collect personal data on everyone and disarm the population?

Dain Bramage said:

Good, then we can depart as friends.

You make some good points about inclusion, before all the hate Righty kicks in.

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I don't hate Righty or Lefty. I agree with opinions on both sides of the aisle. I dislike the you are either 100% with us or against us attitude that too many on the Right and Left have.

ConstitutionCowboy said:

Nom and Dain,

If you want common ground, just stick to the Constitution.

Woody

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Woody,

Unfortunately this thread was never about sticking only to the Constitution. The statement from the very first post, that I quote below, made that very clear.

"The Overton Window has been and is being employed with great success by the socialists."

Any real Socialists in this country are not holding high political office by masquerading as Democrats. Neither are any real Fascists holding high political office by masquerading as Republicans. Can't we have these discussions about defending 2A Rights without the demagogic name calling?
Now I was obviously teasing Dain Bramage about Lenin, but your starting post makes it very clear you believe people in high office who are obviously not Socialists, are Socialists. Since in this country Socialism is considered incorrectly by many people to be a hairs breadth away from the evil of Nazism you really are engaging in a demagogic technique to support your opinion.

Overton Window? Please explain that to me. You folks on this forum are not more sophisticated than me on the stuff. What is an Overton Window, and where did you get that name?

the foot said:

Overton Window? Please explain that to me. You folks on this forum are not more sophisticated than me on the stuff. What is an Overton Window, and where did you get that name?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

Overton Window? Who thought of that anyway?

So what do we get from this "Overton Window"? And who guided you to this "Overton Window" idea? I went to the website you sent, and the "Overton Window" idea is a non starter in today;s politics. Who told you that this is reality? Give me a name.

the foot said:

So what do we get from this "Overton Window"? And who guided you to this "Overton Window" idea? I went to the website you sent, and the "Overton Window" idea is a non starter in today;s politics. Who told you that this is reality? Give me a name.

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You will have to wait for a reply from the member who started the thread to get the best answer for why he believes the Overton Window is relevant. Good Luck.

All this talk of mass migration being disruptive is old hat. The same concerns and fears have been expressed throughout the history of America with every wave of immigration. Since it does not appear the Germans, Swedes, Irish, Chinese, etc.,

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Actually, all those groups were crime ridden burdens on society for a good several generations, until merging into the collective. It's not until that self-reinforcing insulation I mentioned fades that the benefits can be realized. Each of those groups had a mob (Germanic groups did, but predated that term) that exerted corrupting influences on cities, ghettoes, and politicians. It's not a cultural thing so much as a poverty thing; mass migration is always driven by poverty. A society can only tolerate so much poverty before it starts making desperate, short sighted decisions. Like all the laws targeted at those groups.

Supposedly Glenn Beck brought up the window concept recently, hence its appropriation to this topic.

TCB

barnbwt said:

Actually, all those groups were crime ridden burdens on society for a good several generations, until merging into the collective. It's not until that self-reinforcing insulation I mentioned fades that the benefits can be realized. Each of those groups had a mob (Germanic groups did, but predated that term) that exerted corrupting influences on cities, ghettoes, and politicians. It's not a cultural thing so much as a poverty thing; mass migration is always driven by poverty. A society can only tolerate so much poverty before it starts making desperate, short sighted decisions. Like all the laws targeted at those groups.

Supposedly Glenn Beck brought up the window concept recently, hence its appropriation to this topic.

TCB

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You are correct about earlier immigrant groups to extent of those parts of the groups that remained isolated in urban centers, not so much those that did not. Poverty certainly is the primary reason for criminality. In addition to many immigrants arriving with little wealth, much of what contributed to the poverty that caused criminality was exclusion from opportunity by The Majority due to bigotry. I agree that society can only tolerate so much poverty before it starts making desperate, short sighted decisions, but you forgot to mention that it was the short sighted decisions of the Political/Financial Class that is a numerical minority but a power/wealth majority that has done the most to increase poverty and middle class decline. The added factor of impoverished immigrants is only a small portion of what is wrong and hardly significant enough to be the burden that breaks our country’s financial back.

Glenn Beck: Larry “Lonesome” Rhodes brought to life. Andy Griffith must be furiously rolling in his grave. I hope none of our fellow THR members lost their shirts buying any of that gold Beck was shilling. Beck is obviously an opportunistic narcissus with a talent for demagoguery who is fleecing many members of the Right-wing. I am sure until Glenn Beck mentioned the Overton Window as if it was a major political discovery very few of his followers had ever heard of it.

I'm not sorry I exposed the nasty little trick you lefty anti-gunners are using.

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There are no anti gunners here. Maybe some lefty's, but no anti gunners. Glenn and Rush don't define the politics of all gun owners in the US. You would be surprised who owns guns these days.

So many big words, none saying anything important.

Too much heat, no light.

Too much antagonism, no practical advice and no plan.

Closed as pointless.