Deadliest cartridge in history

xxjumbojimboxx said:

I'm pretty sure the x54 has probably killed more folks than the x39. Think about all those machine guns in WWI and II that blasted through that cartridge.

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Ditto, and don't forget all the Mosin Nagant rifles used in both wars.

I'd go with the 8mm, two world wars on multiple fronts, MG32 and MG42 were meat grounders. Millions of infantry were killed in action. I have a Kar98a, Danzig 1914 that has the barrel shot out. How many millions of K98s and Mosin - Nagants were made?

Bottom line is it's a WAG for me.

Think about all those machine guns in WWI and II that blasted through that cartridge.

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The Brits used .303 rounds in most of their WWI machine guns. The Vickers guns were .303. That's one of the reasons I (and apparently some other folks who don't usually agree with me on anything ) think the .303 is #1 on the list. That machine gun actually was in service through both world wars and Korea. It was used on fighter planes too (Nom de Forum already mentioned the .303 was fired from their aircraft).

The .303 was in service from the earliest days of cartridges seeing heavy use in the Lee-Metford rifles that went into service in 1881. It started out as a black powder cartridge. It was in use until the 1960's as a the round used in plane mounted machine guns.

And here's a kicker that I think settles this issue once and for all. I just learned this a minute ago. The Japanese 7.7 round used in their Type 92 machine guns used in WWII is a direct copy of the .303 round. It was used on Japanese fighter bomber planes of WWII. It wasn't a very effective round for the Japanese for whatever reason but still it was used fairly extensively early on in WWII. For example it was used on the dive bombers used at Pearl. And it was used on torpedo bombers throughout the war from Pearl on. The Japanese certainly had better machine guns but they got a lot of use from the .303 round. There were quite a few other planes that used a version of that machine gun. It was the primary hand aimed machine gun on many of their planes during the war. So if you think of the Japanese version of the B17 guns which could be aimed manually you wouldn't be far off. It was used in fixed format setups too.

After learning how extensively the Japanese used the cartridge I'm convinced now that the .303 is the deadliest in history. Between the early black powder rifles using it around the British Empire, the Vickers machine guns that used it to great effectiveness in the trenches of WWI and on aircraft as a primary machine gun in that capacity up to the 1960's plus the Lee Enfield rifles we are familiar with and add in the Japanese use of the cartridge in many of their planes I don't think anything else even comes close. Think about how effective the Brits were using those Enfields in the "mad minute" where German forces became convinced every British soldier was armed with a machine gun. Think about those British fighters in the Battle of Britain and in the skies over Germany then add in the diver bombers and torpedo bombers as well as some long range bombers and sub hunters as used by the Japanese in WWII - I really don't think it's even close now that I've learned a few new things.

Think of the cartridges used in belt fed, crew served weapons. Those are the real killers after air/artillery.
The rifle is almost a footnote.

.303, 30-06, 8x57 and 7.62x54R-between these four you may account for the highest death count since 1900.

7.62x39 and 9x19 and 5.45x39 get honorable mention as does the NATO 5.56 in more recent history. They are the most prolific.
Currently the 7.62x51, 7.62x54R, 7.62x39, 5.45x39 and 5.56x45 and 9x19 are doing almost all the work.

Rifles have become far less important than air/artillery and other crew served weapons since WWI.

A drone and a Hellfire or laser/GPS guided bomb/artillery shell can do the work of a thousand riflemen in seconds.

my vote goes for the 8mm Mauser.
Think of the MG42.

And it was widely exported. Persia, Ottomans .....

OK, another vote for the105mm HE round.

The 155 was a little later, but is a lot more impressive to watch do it's thing downrange...

DG

The 8mm Mauser has been a popular round for a long time but the MG42 was limited to the second half of WWII. The 8mm Mauser was fired by way more guns than that. I don't think it rises up to the level of the .303 but who knows.

Cee Zee - And here's a kicker that I think settles this issue once and for all. I just learned this a minute ago. The Japanese 7.7 round used in their Type 92 machine guns used in WWII is a direct copy of the .303 round.

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Good catch Cee Zee. I initially thought you were in error as I had long ago forgotten about the Aircraft MGs using different 7.7 ammunition from the Infantry MGs. It was also chambered in the two cowl mounted Type 97 Aircraft Machineguns the Mitsubishi Zero fighter carried in addition to the two wing mounted 20mm cannons.

Mp7 said:

my vote goes for the 8mm Mauser.
Think of the MG42.

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Given its rate of fire, I'd at least give it credit for the most ammunition used, or wasted. My wild arse guess would be that maybe one in 500 rounds fired from a MG34 or 42 ever killed anything by itself.

For a Western cartridge, I'd opine that it is the 30-06, since it was used in both World Wars on all fronts (even though we only fought a year of the First War). For an Eastern Bloc country, I'd guess it was the 7.62x54R.

On the simple fact that the British Empire was almost everywhere at some point in time the 303 gets my vote.

Also WWI and


http://www.guns.com/2011/08/02/the-browning-fn-model-1910-the-gun-that-killed-85-million-people/


Depending on how you are thinking about it.

My wild arse guess would be that maybe one in 500 rounds fired from a MG34 or 42 ever killed anything by itself.

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That MG was used mainly for suppressive fire again to keep people in place so the artillery could kill them.

Aircraft MGs using different 7.7 ammunition from the Infantry MGs

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I remember hearing that way back when but it wasn't mentioned that the aircraft round was based on the .303. The Japanese had 3 different 7.7 rounds I believe. Only the one was based on the .303 though. They had the 7.7×58mm Arisaka rimless and 7.7×58mm Type 92 but it was the 7.7x56R stuff that came from the Brits that was the same as the .303. I knew the Zero had two different types of guns but none of the stuff I found mentioned that one used that 7.7x56R round. Learn something new every day I guess. I did know they used a 20mm cannon in addition to their machine gun.

As for the 30.06, I can't see how it comes close to the .303. We came in to both World Wars late compared to the Brits especially in the first war. But even in WWII the Brits were fighing for almost 2 full years before Pearl Harbor. Yes we took some 30.06 rifles to Korea where our troops greatly outnumbered the Brits but we mostly used M1 Carbines. Even in WWII there were more M1 Carbines produced and used than there were Garrands. Yes the Springfield was still around in Korea but it wasn't a common choice.

The 303 and 7.62x39. I'd give a slight nod to the 303. Boer War, Indian (Asia) uprisings, WWI, WW2, and Korea for them plus a LOT of insurgent action and Police use overseas in India and Pakistan. Used by all Commonwealth forces. Great Britain, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, etc.

Add the Japanese using the .303 in a lot of machine guns to your list jolly roger. That's the kicker that made me almost certain the .303 is the answer to the OP's question. All the stuff you listed plus the Japanese machine guns - I can't think of any other round that comes close. The Brits used the .303 going back to the black powder days. They used it in a lot of places were artillery was overkill too so they used their rifles heavily. I mean the Zulu were tough but using spears against rifles was bad enough. Throwing artillery against them too would have been way over the top. The same is pretty much true of the Indian rebels.

I don't have any numbers but I would not be surprised if a handful of G.I.s in Afghanistan have been killed by .303s in the 21st century.

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Yes, but by that same token, some of the insurgents/terrorists/term of the month have used Dragunov rifles, and have killed GIs with x54r as well.

Mosins and their various copies, and the SVD and its copies have been used around the world, and still are. While most of the people using them these days are not government's military troops killing other military troops, it has certainly racked up a huge body count and continues to do so.

Cee Zee said:

Add the Japanese using the .303 in a lot of machine guns to your list jolly roger. That's the kicker that made me almost certain the .303 is the answer to the OP's question. All the stuff you listed plus the Japanese machine guns - I can't think of any other round that comes close. The Brits used the .303 going back to the black powder days. They used it in a lot of places were artillery was overkill too so they used their rifles heavily. I mean the Zulu were tough but using spears against rifles was bad enough. Throwing artillery against them too would have been way over the top. The same is pretty much true of the Indian rebels.

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Rudyard Kipling said:

For you all love the screw-guns -- the screw-guns they all love you!
So when we take tea with a few guns, o' course you will know what to do -- hoo! hoo!
Jest send in your Chief an' surrender -- it's worse if you fights or you runs:
You may hide in the caves, they'll be only your graves, but you can't get away from the guns!

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Leave Tommy be, he has enough problems without being shackled with the illusion of a fair fight!

Darn it....thought I had you both...

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You missed that there are actually 3 Japanese 7.7 rounds. The one they copied from the .303 is the one you missed in the first post. Nice try though.

lysanderxiii said:

Baloney!

The deaths due to combat in the Napoleonic Wars (1803 to 1815 and one of the bloodiest of the period) were 2,500,000 to 3,500,000, from all causes. About 291,000 per year.

The deaths due to combat in World war I were 8,400,000 (1914 to 1918) from all causes. About 2 million per year.

The deaths due to combat in World war II were 22,000,000 (1939 to 1945) from all causes. About 3.6 million per year.

Combat deaths in WW1 and WW2 were an order of magnitude higher than in the musket era.

Artillery has always been the queen of the battlefield. In fact in the musket age, if you were going to engage an enemy further away than 150 yards, you brought up the artillery. So, the percentages of the casualties due to artillery is probably the same +/- 10% or 15%.

No, musket are not the most deadly by a long shot.


Since, I can't be sure that disease figures aren't accidentally included, I will append with this: Medical science and general care about soldier's health and hygiene were much better in 1914, and further improved in the 1940s, we can safety say that the non-combat death due to disease were smaller.

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You say it then you turn around and try to disparage it.
Artillery via concussion and shell fragments along with disease accounted for the vast majority of casualties in combat during all the modern wars.
This fact holds true even today.
The overwhelming majority of troops killed and injured in the last 25 years were felled by high explosives, not small arms fire.
Yes, more people died in WW1 & WW2 but those deaths were NOT mainly caused by small arms fire.

Well, the US for one. Wasn't a primary round, but was adopted for training and competition. It does have an NSN so, it has been "officially" adopted.

Wasn't a primary round, but was adopted for training and competition. It does have an NSN so, it has been "officially" adopted.

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What???