Glocks design

I disagree. Guns are dangerous devices, and mistakes WILL be made. If everyone was carrying Glocks with external safeties or long pull DAO guns there would still be people accidentally shot by the cops - and, I'd wager, more cops killed fumbling with safeties or missing shots with guns with long heavy pulls.

Almost all duty style weapons are going in the same direction as Glock right now. If not Glocks themselves, Glock TYPE guns have become the defacto standard.

Just another attempt to put the blame on an object instead of the person at fault. The basic rules of never pointing a firearm at somthing you don't wish to destory and never put your finger on the trigger until your ready to fire were not followed. The addition of an additional rule of putting the safety on wont help. If a person cant follow or remember the two above rules what's the chances that they will remember to put on the safety? Since they feel that they are extra safe with the gun with a safety, they may be even more careless with said gun. Only now when somthing undesired happens a person will say " I thought it was on safe", and have another oppertunity to blame an inanimate object for their errors. The first and main safety is betweens ones ears, and more people need to turn that safety on. The artical is not anti-gun, it's anti- people taking responsibilty for their actions with a side of I'm in this position so I can suggest what weapons police sould carry. Carry what you want, just be safe about it and be smart about it. I'm not a Glock fanboy, I just carry one at work. I dont really care for someone telling me what tools I need and which ones are too dangerous for me. Try telling a carpenter that his air nailer is too dangerous and that he should use a hammer instead.

That writer has no idea what he's talking about. UDs are purely a training and discipline problem. If an LEO fires his gun just because he was "startled" then he has no business doing that job.

Agree. Poor trigger management should be an automatic qualification failure for an LEO.

This author sets forth a problem with no viable solutions. The NYPD requires that duty guns be retrofitted with 12lb DAO triggers for LEO carry. The Glock 19's that are modified with these NY triggers are much more difficult to shoot accurately than a standard 5.5 lb Glock trigger. But that could be a solution here, actually, probably not, please read the following;

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/foghorn/nypds-choice-of-firearm-may-have-contributed-to-the-terrible-shooting/

If an LEO fires his gun just because he was "startled" then he has no business doing that job.

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I can recall reading an account of "startled" trigger pulls several years back. All the participants in the training exercise were law enforcement officers. The course had a darkened area where another LEO lay on the floor, waiting on the unsuspecting trainees carrying an loaded duty handgun. As the trainees passed by, the bushwhacker would reach out and grab them by the ankle in the dark. Startled, every one of them jerked the trigger of their weapon and got off one dry fire.

The decocker system used on some semi autos like Walthers and CZs seems like it would be far superior in preventing accidental discharges.

Cops used to be just fine with ready to fire decocked autos. Mostly S&W's

Idk when it got "so hard" to learn a DA/SA transition, as it really isn't.

That said I have no issue with Glocks.

Training
Training
Training

Glock triggers are not particularly light in OEM form. I am not opposed to having my weapon fire each time the trigger is pulled. This officer should not have had his finger on the trigger, period. For every ND that has occurred via striker fired pistols by LE, there are likely instances where LEO's took fire due to poor shot placement with a heavy double action.

gun_with_a_view said:

I can recall reading an account of "startled" trigger pulls several years back. All the participants in the training exercise were law enforcement officers. The course had a darkened area where another LEO lay on the floor, waiting on the unsuspecting trainees carrying an loaded duty handgun. As the trainees passed by, the bushwhacker would reach out and grab them by the ankle in the dark. Startled, every one of them jerked the trigger of their weapon and got off one dry fire.

The decocker system used on some semi autos like Walthers and CZs seems like it would be far superior in preventing accidental discharges.

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Impossible if one keeps one's finger off the trigger until one has a confirmed threat and and an identified target.

I recant my post due to numerous possible inaccuracies, and refer interested parties to this accounting of the event:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-197922.html

I retain my reservations concerning Glock pistols overall, and also a preference for the decocker system on my Walther PPK.

No added or enhanced safety "devise" will ever preclude the absolute necessity of training and adherence to strict dictum. Any activity involving firearms is inherently hazardous. It can never be made fail-safe. That element will always be present. Learn to deal with it and face it on its own terms. As a hazardous activity it can only be managed, not totally conquered. Have enough faith in your abilities and not some layer of false security to operate in a dangerous environment. Manage your fear but never assume you will ever eliminate it completely. Never whistle past the graveyard with a loaded firearm at the ready. What's the adage we hear bandied about these parts?>Is gun...Gun not safe

An acquaintance of mine shot himself in the leg disassembling his Glock.

I have four Glocks and carry either a 19 or a 26 on a regular basis, occasionally a 20 in the badlands. I have never shot myself in the leg disassembling the pistol.

Is gun. Is not safe. I like this possibly apocryphal story: A lady observes a crusty Texas Ranger carrying a 1911 cocked and locked. Said lady inquires, "Sir, is not that dangerous?" to which CTR replies, "Lady, it weren't dangerous, I wouldn't carry the SOB."

Coyote3855 said:

An acquaintance of mine shot himself in the leg disassembling his Glock.

I have four Glocks and carry either a 19 or a 26 on a regular basis, occasionally a 20 in the badlands. I have never shot myself in the leg disassembling the pistol.

Is gun. Is not safe. I like this possibly apocryphal story: A lady observes a crusty Texas Ranger carrying a 1911 cocked and locked. Said lady inquires, "Sir, is not that dangerous?" to which CTR replies, "Lady, it weren't dangerous, I wouldn't carry the SOB."

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Actually, he pointed the muzzle where he shouldn't have and pulled the trigger. The "cleaning it" part is what he thought he was doing.

The writer sounds more like a FUDD than a pro-gun guy. Even if they had an external safety, any cop that has his pistol drawn and at the ready with the safety still on would be an idiot.

I've carried Glocks since 1992, never had one discharge unless I pulled the trigger.

I appendix carry IWB; my Glocks have a NY trigger which increases pull to about 8 lbs, reassuring given where the muzzle is pointed.

Just another attempt to put the blame on an object instead of the person at fault. The basic rules of never pointing a firearm at somthing you don't wish to destory and never put your finger on the trigger until your ready to fire were not followed.

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If that were the case then there would be no difference between any handgun made as far as accuracy, safety, and function. Facts are facts,some designs will be inherently easier to make mistakes with than others. If there is a higher likelihood of AD or ND with one design over another then why not address it?

The idea of a 12lb trigger seams ridiculous to me. 5.5lb may be on the light side but I think the pendulum swung too far with 12lbs. I think length of pull has a little more to due with it than overall weight.
I think a safer set up is a decocker style double action/ single action. First pull is long and deliberate, with subsequent shots short and crisp.

Accidents are going to happen regardless of what is used, But that doesn't mean that there should be no act of prevention to minimize occurrences.
I think the addition of a decocker on the striker fired design could be a good benefit to minimizing AD/NDs. Models could be available with the option and without.

As long as one remembers and applies the Four Cardinal Rules Of Firearms Safety, it does not matter what type of action the firearm has.

I do laugh out loud when a 1911 fanboy has a 4 pound glass rod trigger on his 1911 and proclaims that is completely safe to carry, but then proclaims you will shoot yourself with a 5.5 pound bone stock DAO trigger in a Glock.

Follow the four rules, keep your firearms stored safely, and accidents will be drastically reduced or eliminated.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

I hate articles like this because there is no discussion of either the tradeoffs, or the facts which quantify them.

Sure, a standard glock is one option, a glock with a heavy trigger is another, a DAO pistol is a third. OK.

How many fewer negligent trigger pulls do you see when changing from one type of pistol to another? How many more misses, and the how many more fights lost or bystanders struck as a result? How does the costs and benefits of changing pistol types compare to the cost of additional training?

These are not impossible questions. Large departments routinely change from one pistol to another, and sometimes they phase in their new gun with half the department using a gun of one type while the other half uses another. The whole point is to see trends in how well these guns perform in the field, in the hands of their officers.

Start the conversation with some data and some specific tradeoffs to compare and it can lead to some useful conclusions. Without that, its just talk.

An acquaintance of mine shot himself in the leg disassembling his Glock.

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Which is not the fault of Glock. Who fails to clear a gun they're going to be cleaning, let alone point it at themselves?

Any modern and reliable firearm has that last safety: finger off the trigger. Thumb safeties, grip safeties, drop safeties, and firing pin blocks are all layers of safeties based on personal preference. The one constant is that trigger. In a properly functioning firearm, there is no such thing as "mechanically unsafe." Load up any firearm, round in chamber, and put it on a shelf. That firearm is not going to magically go off by itself regardless of it is a Glock or not. Any "gun guy" knows this and I highly doubt Bob Owens at the LA Times is on this side of the fence.

MikeJackmin said:

I hate articles like this because there is no discussion of either the tradeoffs, or the facts which quantify them.

Sure, a standard glock is one option, a glock with a heavy trigger is another, a DAO pistol is a third. OK.

How many fewer negligent trigger pulls do you see when changing from one type of pistol to another? How many more misses, and the how many more fights lost or bystanders struck as a result? How does the costs and benefits of changing pistol types compare to the cost of additional training?

These are not impossible questions. Large departments routinely change from one pistol to another, and sometimes they phase in their new gun with half the department using a gun of one type while the other half uses another. The whole point is to see trends in how well these guns perform in the field, in the hands of their officers.

Start the conversation with some data and some specific tradeoffs to compare and it can lead to some useful conclusions. Without that, its just talk.

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+1. Priorities need to be established, and I would think those would prioritize what the LEO can shoot best quickly and accurately. Anything we do to make the GUN less susceptible to ND's will likewise damage its performance in those categories.

I know myself well enough to know that under stress my fine motor control might be impaired, causing me to break a SA trigger pull early. That is one ofe of fhe reasons my carry guns are a Kahr, a Sig with the DAK trigger and a DAO revolver.

I learned to shoot with a DA revolver, so a long DA trigger pull isn't a problem for me.

Glocks aren't any more dangerous than any other handguns, IMO. Everyone would be a lot safer if we simply did away with cops altogether.