Should the party be strong?

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Iain

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Hello all, I've just returned from a weeks sailing in Greece. Had a good time.

How many ordinary people can reduce every issue in the world to two competing questions?...But the readiness to reduce everything to simple binary issues is not the point...No, what is striking is the public certitude, the sheer brass neck, to pronounce that yours is the one and only sensible attitude for an adult to strike. Privately many MP's have confessed, to diaries or to intimate friends, that they find a particular cause hard to stomach, misguided or dangerous. But they cannot say so publicly. It would be suicide.- Jeremy Paxman - 'The Political Animal'
Tales of whipping abound. I'm not sure if you have a similar office over there, think 'party enforcer', the guy who calls you in to his office (and sometimes assaults you) if you fail to tow the party line. One tale Paxman relates (although aware that it may be stuff of legend) is of some photographs of a publicly extremely moral Conservative politician that were sent to Conservative Head Office. The photographs involved him, young women and an animal. When the MP concerned threatened to vote against his party he was called in and shown these photographs and then they were put back in the safe. The implications were clear.

I've often heard it said that a good government majority is an excellent thing because it allows them to 'get things done'. More often than not though we detest a party acting in a manner that indicates they believe they are above Parliament, and worse, the real power in this country lies in 10 Downing Street and with unelected civil servants according to Paxman. The government does many things, Helena Kennedy (Labour Law Lord) estimates that around 700 revisions have been made to criminal law since 1997. Some of those revisions have clearly been a failure, like night courts, that ended up costing around 30-40x more money per prosecutee (?) than conventional courts and had to be scrapped.

We, both here and on your side of the water, often resent it when the government does get things done. New terrorism laws have proved to be controversial and yet new terrorism laws were needed. I'd like to think that reasonable, and clearly legal, measures would attract cross-party support so that even a 'hung parliament' would achieve that which is necessary. But on the whole party politics is all about scoring points off the government in the manner of a high school debating chamber, Paxman would have us believe. The party faithful are dwindling in number and disenchantment set in long ago. Party politics, which has long since shifted to scrapping over the centre, has alienated the public.

The question is - should the party be strong? Stalin commented to Churchill, upon hearing that Churchill had to fight an election soon, that it would be much simpler if there were only one party. The authoritarian streak runs strong in those who play the game the best, telling us what to do for four or five years appeals. A strong government can achieve much, and much of that we may find difficult to swallow.

This isn't another 'vote Libertarian' thread, it's a thread borne of the increasing belief that all party politics is, or has become, corrupt. I am considering writing to some MP's in this country, good public servants who have crossed their party on many occasions, and ask them to consider running as 'Independants' at the next election. Independant Conservative or Labour would be fine, the independance is the crucial issue. I almost dare not do it for fear of their reply intimating that they think they would lose if they did, and that this is unconscionable for them.
 
Glad you had a good time on your trip. I don't know, but Washington was against the 2 party system. I don't think our current administration is evil, like most of the world thinks. I don't have the energy to debate it, but Bush has my support for the next 5 years. After his second term, I'll reevaluate my options, but right now Bush is the man.
 
St Johns,

Its interesting that this is (in terms of the UK) a uniquely English problem; obviously NI is a special case, but in recent politicial history both the SNP and Plaid have managed to reach the status of top two/three parties in Scotland and Wales respectively (Plaid in particular, which is quite leftwing generally, stands to gain from disaffected Labourites).

With regards to majorities, the power afforded to the whips increases as the majority of HMG goes down (or the votes become close) - there was considerably latitude afforded Tories between 1979-83 than later; but this is like a pressure cooker in that you can only keep the heat on so long before someone emerges who you dont have stuff on (or doesnt care that you have stuff on them) that everyone who is under the thumb can safely support - Michael Heseltine for example.

Independents would be a good thing, but there are still great MPs, and shockingly bad MPs (Kate Hoey of course being firmly in the latter camp), and the "party line" does at least nearly guarantee that they stand for something.
 
Politics corrupt? You don't say! The focus on making everything into simple binary issues, though, is exactly the point and the key to it all. Most people, leftists and rightists alike, are not particularly thoughtful nor are they knowledgeable on most issues. They like to believe they are, though, and they like to be told that what they believe is good and true and pure and right. Enter the poiticians. Phrase everything simplistically and convince your voter base that a vote for you is a vote for pure 24 kt goodness, and you're on your way to power.
 
Party politics are a long useless means of staffing governments.

Furthermore, why must governments "get something done"? An old adage here in "the colonies" is; "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Unfortunately, that reasoning doesn't sit well with politicians be they MPs or congresscritters. I would tend to conclude them all as meddlesome busybodies. Useless lives spent in attempts to impose their will on others who neither need or want their self-indulgent or self-aggrandizng interventions. Too many vain efforts to appear somehow relevant to the lives of the less fortunate rabble known as citizens or subjects.

Were it up to me I would allow them to meet only for a fortnight once a year to solve all the ills of the world then load them all in a lorry to be carted back to some isolated asylum for the socially-impaired. The legislation they concoct could readily be turned to confetti. In the meantime between their returns to solve the ills of the world, we, the living, could get on with just that...living.

Perhaps we could make their return to the halls of power an annual spectacle complete with carnival amusements and balloons. Then we could have big parade and jeer them and cheer them completing the full mockery with our feigned respect and gratitude for their alleged service to the nation. We could call the fortnight the "Political Party" and what a grand party it would be! It would serve to secure the health and wealth and unity of our respective nations for another year. It would also leave us free to continue living in a peacable state.

Beyond that, I find no use for any political party. I'll leave that to the dour collectivists who seem to find some meaning for their lives in politics and governments and other things that are just slightly more useful than the dust that collects on my computer monitor.

Chipper
 
I don't know about Great Britain, but here each party has a position called the "whip." If I understand it correctly, the whip's job is to get people to toe the party line. How much actual power does the PM have over there compared to our president?
 
much more in some areas, much less in others.

For a start (in recent history) the PM has always been the head of the party that controls the House of Commons, so in theory its easy for the PM to pass legislation, and so no situation can develop, as does in the US, where the legislative and executive are split along partisan lines. To a lesser extent, the PM can also dictate what legislation the House devotes its time to (through the Leader of the House), and they have formidable powers of patronage - aside from the military orders (VC, MC etc), most "honours" bestowed by the Crown are first vetted / "inspired" by HMG and he could, if the mood took him, pick a random person and have him made a Lord (which would then allow that person to be part of the legislature).

However the PM, because of the (almost) all-elected nature of his ministers, must fill almost every ministerial post with MPs (or, less common and usually junior ministers (the exception being the soon-to-be-defunct Lord Chancellor) being Lords). This gives the PM patronage, but it also forces their hand to supply posts to enemies / potential enemies within their own party to prevent them being on the backbenches and attracting support to challenge the PM's own position. Thus you have the odd situation (which presumably doesnt happen in the US) whereby very senior members of the administration loathe each other and the PM (the current PM and the Chancellor are rumoured to actively dislike each other, and everyone hated Robin Cook when he was Foriegn Secretary) - but these ministers are virtually unsackable because the PM will fear them not in office.

The PM also has a weekly question-and-answer (Prime Ministers Questions) session with the House of Commons whereby (in essence) the two Opposition parties try to make him look stupid. The PM is in the House for major debates as well, and like at PMQ's there is the off chance that something unexpected will happen and someone will hand out a kicking - as anyone who recalls Geoffrey Howe (whos speeches were held in such high esteem that Denis Healey described Howe's questions as "like being savaged by a dead sheep") handing out the mother of all resignation speeches in order to bring Thatcher down. As I understand the US system, there is no way (short of an impeachment) for the Congress to lay into the President to his face on a regular basis.
 
I've always prefered deadlocked legislatures. The less the government does, the better.
 
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