Small base or regular size die.

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JBrady555

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I'm fixing to buy a rcbs x die for my new 223 loading adventure. I have the option of a regular size x die or the small base x die. I've been doing my research but it's still inconclusive to me whether I should get one over the other. My few AR's either have 5.56 chambers or wylde chambers. If I go with the regular sizer could I run into issues where brass shot in the 5.56 chamber might be problematic in the slightly tighter wylde? Could this be one of the instances where the small base dies may be ideal? Anyone using hornady one shot in small base dies without stuck cases? I prefer using one shot for ease of use. I also do have a dillon case guage to check my cases with. My decision will be made based on the input I get from this thread. I've read a lot across the Internet forums on the topic, with probably 2/3 folks in favor of regular sizing dies, but I'm not completely sold on that making them right, at least not for every situation. Thanks for any info.
 
jb,

I've used a regular RCBS .223/556 sizing die on the last 7000 cases I've done with no problems chambering in any of my four AR's. I case gauge every loaded round with my Dillon case gauge and still no problems. Good luck.

best wishes- oldandslow
 
A small base will work for sure. But a regular die will probably work, too.

Someone will probably come along and insist you need a small base die, because once upon a time they bought an AR with a match chamber, and lo and behold the regular die didn't work anymore with MIXED brass fired out of their other guns.

Question is, why bother buying a tight match chamber and then just go ahead and make your ammo smaller. All you accomplished is to make all your other guns less accurate.

If you want higher reliability, then get the small base die. If you want potentially longer case life and possibly higher accuracy, try a regular die, first. If you are obsessed with accuracy, you should want the largest die that works with your rifle and keep your fired cases separate from other pickups if your chamber is tight. Dies are cheap. Well, X dies are less so, but consider how many rounds you expect to reload with them and the cost of those components and labor?
 
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Lost count years ago how many cases went through my standard RCBS dies and never had a problem in several different ARs from different manufacturers.
Not an expert but from what I understand the small base die sizes smaller so it seems you would get more blow by and getting your chamber and BCG dirtier. What's one of the first things you do to tighten up accuracy? Neck sizing? Tighter case to chamber fit. I realize ARs are not all match grade and auto loaders are different than bolt guns etc but do like to get accuracy. Just saying
.
If you are fortunate to shoot full auto it might help .

All that being said I have switched to a Dillon Carbide sizing die and despite all being said about about not lubing carbide dies Dillon still recommends it for bottleneck cartridges because quote unquote eventually you will get one stuck. So what's the advantage of a Carbide die? I plan to never wear it out and thus giving me a consistent sizing forever.
I also use the Dillon Case Lube.
 
it seems you would get more blow by and getting your chamber and BCG dirtier. What's one of the first things you do to tighten up accuracy? Neck sizing? Tighter case to chamber fit

I agree with the end result, but I think with full power loads blowby will be virtually the same. The OD of the case neck will be the same in either case, and it should expand and mostly seal the chamber with a full power loading. I think the greater accuracy potential comes largely from the cartridge being fixed in the exact same and concentric orientation at the time of ignition, rather than being able to rattle around as much. I could be wrong, but also I think the BCG of an AR will get most of its fouling from the direct gas system, anyhow?
 
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A small base will work for sure. But a regular die will probably work, too.

Someone will probably come along and insist you need a small base die, because once upon a time they bought an AR with a match chamber, and lo and behold the regular die didn't work anymore with MIXED brass fired out of their other guns.

That would be me. I had thousands of rounds of reloads on hand when I bought a new AR that jammed 1 in 5 or so. Small base fixed the problem, and allowed my newer reloads to work on my new match rifle.

Question is, why bother buying a tight match chamber and then just go ahead and make your ammo smaller. All you accomplished is to make all your other guns less accurate.

The small base die resizes to about the same size as factory ammo. The match chamber allows you to fire factory ammo accurately, as well as reloads. A loose chamber, by your logic (which is correct) will not allow you to fire factory ammunition as accurately. Personally, I think you are talking about hundredths of MOA accuracy lost. The real accuracy gained by the match barrel is usually the overall higher quality of materials and workmanship.

I loaded for 20 years without wanting or needing a small base die, and I thought they were marketing foolishness. Then I needed one (2 actually, my .308 AR had the same issue.) My advice is:
-If you already have a regular die, and it works, keep it and only get one if you need it later. Don't load up many cans of ammo with it if you are planning on building or buying a match rifle in the near future.
-If I was starting out and can buy a die that works in 95% of rifles or one that works in 100% of rifles, I would go with the one that does 100% if they are the same cost.
-If you are loading for a bolt gun, don't worry about it. Get regular die or neck sizing die.
-If you continuously reload the same batch of brass repeatedly, stay away from small base unless you need to. They work the brass more, which shortens case life. I tend to come home with hundreds of 5.56 empties every range trip, even if I am not even shooting one. I haven't had an issue with brass life.
 
I've not had any problems using a standard FL RCBS die, and that includes for tight custom barrel build.

I suppose there must be some reason why they offer the SB dies, I've just not ever needed them.

GS
 
I have and use both a Lee and RCBS standard 223 die sets. All my firearms that use 223 are NOT match grade/tight chambers. That said I have run a metric buttload of mixed 223/5.56 brass through them both and never had a problem sizing anything, even the 1000 qty lot of MG fired LC 5.56 I purchased on GB when I first started to reload for this caliber. So far I have never needed a small base die set.
 
JBrady555 said:
I've been doing my research but it's still inconclusive to me whether I should get one over the other. My few AR's either have 5.56 chambers or wylde chambers. If I go with the regular sizer could I run into issues where brass shot in the 5.56 chamber might be problematic in the slightly tighter wylde?

Note the dimensions of a "Wylde Chamber".

The base(C) is Larger(not smaller) compared to the 223 and most 5,56 chambers.

The Wylde is also larger in dimensions, D,E,K,M,N.

REAMER6_zpsup0khde2.png

I use standard FL sizing dies in all my semi-autos, Browning, Rem., Ruger, Colt, AA, never a problem as long as the FL die is adjusted properly.
 
Chances are, the fl die will be just fine BUT, if you want absolute reliability, the SB die will up your chances...

SR
 
I have a number of .223 rifles no pistols, if one won't chamber ammunition size correctly I fix it vs making all of my ammunition undersize. Never know, I might actually need the firearm to run on factory ammo some day.
 
i load for 5 semi-auto .223 rifles with fl dies.i take fired cases from each rifle and run them through the hornady headspace gauge. find the mid size from all the cases and set your fl die .002 to .003 less and see how they chamber in the rifles. this will keep you from over working the brass and the cases will fit the chamber of each rifle better. getting 5 to 6 reloads from cases before careful inspection for possible retirement.
 
If you do not already have a 223 Remington sizing die, I recommend getting a small base die. It will save potential headaches in the future, particularly if you use cases that you do not know the history of. The potential is small but a stuck case will happen at the most in opportune moment.

I get the the same case life in my ARs whether I am using a small base die or a standard base die. I do have one Ar-15 that will not chamber cases fired in one of my other AR-15s if I use the standard die that I have.

If you start with factory ammunition, new cases or cases fired in your rifle, no problem using a standard sizing die.
 
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The small base die resizes to about the same size as factory ammo.
I thought that's what regular dies did. The manufacturer is aiming for the size that will put 95% of brass back to spec, which will already make some of your cases much smaller than maximum SAAMI case spec by necessity, and likely some of it smaller than minimum SAAMI case spec.

The real accuracy gained by the match barrel is usually the overall higher quality of materials and workmanship.
So I could buy one and have it professionally reamed out to maximum SAAMI chamber spec to have the best in accuracy and reliability? All while using mixed brass fired out of several different guns, to boot? Let's be honest. If you want to get the most out of any gun, including a gun with a tight chamber, one of the tried and true methods of increasing accuracy is by matching the size of your brass to the chamber of the gun. Most folks who will buy a match chamber for an AR are going to be particular about their brass for that gun, rather than make all their ammo smaller but retain the same amount of variation in size. Of course, there are exceptions. If you want to shoot your matches with factory ammo, then there's that. I didn't think most reloaders even gave a hoot about factory ammo, anymore. :) For some of us, the real reason to buy a tight match chamber is that factory ammo is more accurate, for one. True. But also when you match your ammo to your chamber by partial sizing/bumping the shoulders, that ammo is more likely to be a tight fit to the chamber at the base when using a regular die. You're gonna HOPE that not all your brass fits... this indicates you have a good tight fit, and you'll sort and track your cases from there. And the bonus is your ammo will still be at least a little smaller than minimum chamber spec or even possibly still be smaller than maximum case spec, in case you need to shoot it out of a different gun.

If that sounds like a lot of work for an autoloader, it is probably why this combination is not that popular for convenience-oriented reloaders.

-If I was starting out and can buy a die that works in 95% of rifles or one that works in 100% of rifles, I would go with the one that does 100% if they are the same cost.
For stockpiling years worth of plinking fodder where reliability is the most important thing, I completely agree. I said as such. But if you ever want to intentionally buy a semiauto gun with a match chamber, you may conversely want to experiment with a REGULAR die to reload for it, specifically. And you're talking about a measly 30-100 buck die over the course of 20 years of reloading 223. What you're suggesting only makes sense if you are worried you will accidentally come across a gun with a tight chamber, not care if it's particularly accurate, and will want all your previously made ammo to shoot in it... in which case reaming that gun to at least minimum chamber spec will also only cost $50.00.

You can also be 100% sure that even a small base die won't sufficiently size 100% of brass you may accidentally pickup. You can come across some that will be scores of mils too LONG after FLR, let alone too wide at the base. There's no way around it. It's a compromise. The manufacturers aim for the best compromise, and that's all it is, and that's why there are multiple sizes. And if the small base die were the best compromise, they would call the regular die the large base die.

A loose chamber, by your logic (which is correct) will not allow you to fire factory ammunition as accurately.
Yes, but we're not discussing buying a new gun. The OP already has guns, and as far as anyone knows at this point, his guns have average chambers. If his guns DID have loose chambers, that would be even more reason to not use a small base die. His brass and his reloading arm would be getting an extra workout for nothing.
 
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Lots of folks have stuck cases with Hornady One shot when full length sizing, so make darn sure they are all well lubed. Spraying is easy but if an area on the case is left unlubed you could be singing the stuck case blues.
Gary
 
Small base dies require more effort to size, decrease case life and are usually unnecessary. Most ARs are not precision rifles. I'd be very surprised if you can't chamber standard sized cases in any of your ARs. One exception might be Noveske barrels which are known to have tight chambers.
 
I use S/B dies in several calibers. They do not reduce case life and I've not noticed any extra effort in sizing cases. As long as you set your die up properly using a case gauge or comparator (which many reloaders don't have a clue how to), you're not going to oversize your cases, which CAN reduce case life.

O/P, if you don't own a set of 223 dies, buy the S/B dies. You won't be sorry.
 
I have always used a standard sizer and have never had issues with numerous chambers over the years, but if I was brand new to reloading these days I would probably lean towards buying the "RCBS AR Series" set which utilizes a SB sizer.

That said, more people get into trouble from not setting the sizer up right than they do because they are using a standard sizer.
 
Done deal, bought a small base x die set. I know I've talked alot in my past few threads about wanting all this accuracy, but truth be told my last ar build was my first ever scoped weapon. Havent even shot it yet. My others have red dots. I'm sure I'm not gonna miss the extra accuracy from the regular sizing die, if there even really is any extra.
 
The difference between the widest diameter on brass sized on my SB die vs my regular die (Lee regular/RCBS SB) is .002. This is with LC '14 brass. Two thousandths. That is thinner than most human hairs.

The thickest point was .246 from the case head, right above the web. Here is the diameter measured at that point from various rounds:
-Lee Standard .223 Full Length die (LC 14): .376
-RCBS SB resized brass (also LC14): .374
-Black hills Remanufactured ammo (LC 13): .374.
Winchester Match (Winchester HS): .373.
Federal Bulk (LC14): .372.
ZQI (MKE): .373.

Brass resized by my RCBS SB sizing die is still larger than factory loads. I am pretty sure that the Lee rounds are slightly larger than SAAMI max cartridge, but below max chamber. They still work fine in my other rifles. I would be interested to know what other dies do at that point (preferably with newer LC brass.)
 
I am pretty sure that the Lee rounds are slightly larger than SAAMI max cartridge, but below max chamber.
If your measuring equipment is accurate to a tenth of a mil, as in .3760", then yes, that's larger than SAAMI spec by a ten thousandth of an inch. According to SAAMI, max dimension at the base is .3759". Min chamber is a mil larger, and even a tight 223 match chamber is probably not going to go all the way down to .3769", but who knows.

But if your ammo jams, then yeah, you might want a smaller die.

I'll dig up some cases and add my measurements (to the nearest half a mil, anyway). But I don't know what that will tell you about the die. I imagine the final size is going to vary a little, based on the size of your guns' chambers, how hot your loads, and how many times fired.

*update:
What I got here with my FLR brass using a Lee 223 die is:
LC10 : 0.3745
LC08 : 0.3745-0.3750
LC07 : 0.3735
R-P : 0.3750-0.3755

These cases were probably fired at least 4 times.
 
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I'd be surprised if your tightest gun can't chamber your .376" nominal LC14's.

When you had the jams, I wonder if some of your initial supply of brass didn't include some sketchy pieces that caused an occasional jam, rather than all your ammo being bad. Or maybe one of your other guns is the culprit, itself.
 
If your measuring equipment is accurate to a tenth of a mil, as in .3760", then yes, that's larger than SAAMI spec by a ten thousandth of an inch.
I use a dial caliper for the fine stuff, but it is not a $200 dial caliper. It is accurate, but 10 thousandths is asking a bit much for non-professional equipment.

What I got here with my FLR brass using a Lee 223 die is:
LC10 : 0.3745
LC08 : 0.3745-0.3750
LC07 : 0.3735
R-P : 0.3750-0.3755

These cases were probably fired at least 4 times.

Thanks, I think I am going to go in depth and work out exactly what the small base does. My brass is mostly once-fired, so that will change the final size a good bit.

I'd be surprised if your tightest gun can't chamber your .376" nominal LC14's.
True. In a clean chamber, they seat. Fire 20 rounds in the rifle, and they start to jam. The carbine just keeps going, and going...

When you had the jams, I wonder if some of your initial supply of brass didn't include some sketchy pieces that caused an occasional jam, rather than all your ammo being bad. Or maybe one of your other guns is the culprit, itself.
It may not have even been my brass, to tell the truth. I have learned a lot from this discussion, and have been surprised at my observations. For one, I learned neck sized brass from the Remington 700 is smaller above the web than full length resized brass from the Lee die. Odd.

Thanks for the input and for the discussion.
 
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