Marines told not to wear uniforms

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A particular installation's mission would obviously influence weapons allocation & storage.

If there are sufficient stocks spread out across the globe to issue one to every active-duty service member, which I still doubt, it'd require some logistics shuffling to do so. :)
Denis
 
Many of our gun owners and CCW folks here understand we have guns in our homes or carry to protect ourselves and family. I just came to to conclusion that our country has pushed me as a citizen, who seems to be allowed certain rights they are depriving my beloved soldier, to add any GI to my permanent family and watch out for them while in public. No big display, just continue on as normal, but be there just as if they were my son or daughter. They protected us, it's time to return the favor and tell the wimpy generals and politicians to pound Iwo Jima sand.

Sorry, just a rant.
 
A U.S. Army General has also stated that arming soldiers is not an acceptable solution to the problem because of the high risk of NDs because the soldiers have not had enough training with sidearms. I can't even recognize my country any more.

Okay so issue them M-4's. Urban warfare, just what it was invented for. Your soft target just got real hard.

My boys were good shots when they went into the Corps. They are better now, scary better.
 
While stationed in Spain, we were told not to wear uniforms off base. This had nothing to do with the majority of the populace not liking us, they did. It was the pesky members or the ETA (Basque separatist) that liked to shoot at us.
 
Talking to a friend about this he had a good suggestion. What if a bunch of retired vets (whether they retired from the military or a civilian job doesn't matter) with CCW's just started "hanging out" around recruiting depots?

No one can fault the military, and since these places are usually in public places no reason to stop them. In fact, I happened to notice earlier this week that our local recruiting shop had an LAPD black and white parked in the lot.

Now I'm sure that no one in the LAPD would admit to planning this, because those cops were just taking a break.:)
 
To repeat: You can't just hand out M4s to everybody.
It's not that simple.
Denis
 
I will ask you nicely to avoid disrespecting the Army, I served in the Army and will not see it be spoken against. The branches need to be together on this issue. The enemy doesn't care, if it has the US flag whether army navy or marines and airforce to even the postal service they are the enemy.
 
To repeat: You can't just hand out M4s to everybody.
It's not that simple.
Denis
Okay, then break out some M16's, M14's, shotguns or what have you. Hell, let the folks bring what they own. But to leave a service member unarmed when they are a proven target is criminal. If necessary buy more.
 
Did you see my post on some of the issues involved?

You just can't hand out government hardware to everybody on base & say "There- problem solved."
Denis
 
Those regulations pertain to working uniforms, such as BDUs; there has never been, to my knowledge, any proscription against Class As/service dress uniforms in public.

Absolutely, within the laws of the state in which one is permanently stationed (though, as bemoaned about so many times in this and other forums, not on base).


Your first sentence may be true, but the post-9/11, post-USS COLE military has caused most branches (I cannot speak to the Air Force) to acquaint even clerks, supply personnel and cooks with some small arms training for "force protection."

I can't speak for weapons training in any branch. As for the regs on uniform off base, IVH has number of newly graduated boots visit residents in uniform.
 
All my military experience and time has been post 9/11. In that time I have never been ordered to not wear uniform. Never even advised. Regardless I avoid wearing my uniform in public whenever possible. One of my first military instructors was SF who taught lessons and tactics in counter-surveillance. And his tactics were based off being present at the Khobar towers attack in 96. His lessons stuck with me. He also impressed on me at a young age that it is better to carry a weapon in uniform and ask forgiveness after punishment than to ask permission.
 
Did you see my post on some of the issues involved?

You just can't hand out government hardware to everybody on base & say "There- problem solved."
Denis
Your posts read just like an anti-gun liberal. Just saying...
 
For over a year my major command has been having subordinate commanders "advise" soldiers against wearing uniforms when not on duty and potentially to and from our installation. Subsequently I've passed the guidance on to my soldiers. Though we're in a high density urban area.
 
Your posts read just like an anti-gun liberal. Just saying...

Comments like this are going to get this thread closed.

We are nation at war. However we have become complacent since 9/11 about our security here in the homeland. We are dealing with a resourceful enemy who is changing their tactics to attack Americans here at home. They have had a lot of practice in Europe and England.

The level of security at military offices and protection of our soldiers off base is going to take time to figure out. Our country is large and has a lot of installations, offices and soldiers posted stateside.

Denis is on target with his comment that "You just can't hand out government hardware to everybody on base & say "There- problem solved." It just isn't practical for starters.

As for arming recruiters and uniformed military personnel in uniform when they are off base what are American citizens comfortable with? Are citizens comfortable with uniformed soldiers with M-4's standing guard and walking around in public places such as shopping malls? Acceptance of handguns though is more likely.

Americans are reacting to domestic terrorism by arming themselves and carrying concealed (and open) weapons. But it is important to remember that citizens can usually only legally use their weapons for defensive reasons. I don't think American citizens are ready for teams of uniformed armed soldiers making offensive operations by making patrols on our streets.
 
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Sixguns,
You could not be more wrong & if that's all you got out of what I said you obviously have no clue who or what I am.

There are a large number of practical details involved in handing everybody a government-owned weapon.

I have carried an M-16 daily.
It gets in the way.
It cannot be treated casually.

You can't just lay it down anywhere.
You can't wear it on-body all day.

If you're an office worker, where do you put it when you're sitting at your desk?
You can't just leave it laying in a corner.

If you move around the base during the day, how do you carry it in your vehicle?
Tossed in the back seat?
Locked in the trunk?

If you ride with others, where are the long guns?
If you hit a restroom, do you leave your rifle behind at your work station?
Where?
How?
Who's responsible for watching it while you're gone?
Do you have to take it with you?
Sling it while you're doing your business?
Hang it on the hook inside a stall door?

Chow hall?
Where's your rifle while you're eating?
Slung?
Propped against your table?
Locked in your trunk outside in the parking lot?

Restaurant?
Same deal.

On-site medical facilities. Doctor's office. Medical appointment.
Haul your rifle along through a routine visit?
Sling it the whole time you're there?
Leave it in the car?

Along with every single other place you go on base during your work day.

The rifle has to be secure from theft, unwanted tampering, accidentally being knocked over, or played with.

There are civilians all over most bases.
Outside contractors.
Civilian employees.
Service members families (including kids).

Not all have a thoroughly vetted background check.
Not all are 100% guaranteed mentally stable.
Not all are adults.

If you've got 5,000 people at a given base (small estimate) each toting an M-16 around all day, vulnerability to theft, damage, or an AD increase exponentially.

You HAVE to provide regulations about carry, condition of readiness (loaded or empty chamber), secure storage & secure stowage, and you have to establish designated places in buildings where those rifles can be securely set aside while their carriers are not practically able to physically possess them while carrying out their duties.

That can run from rifle racks through gun lockers to some sort of quick-access vault.
All will cost a bunch of money to install at installations around the world.

Vehicles?
Back-seat carry won't cut it.
Locked rifle racks, like LE uses, or possibly trunk carry.
Limited room inside a vehicle for more than one or two rifle racks, so max number of people/rifles allowed per vehicle?

Barracks?
Given the nature of what goes on in barracks & dorms, with no prohibitions on alcohol, that's an accident that would only bide its time. It would not be if, it'd be when, should rifles be allowed to be kept in them routinely.

Who gets one issued?
Enlisted? Non-com. Officers?
Minimum of two years of time in service?
Satisfactory duty performance evaluation?
Pass a psych eval? (NOT as silly for an active service member as you might think, in terms of turning people loose with essentially unsupervised weapons. We see enough cases of service members turning on their own for this to be a valid concern.)

Off base?
A multitude of liabilities there.
Personal vehicles required to have a locking rifle rack?
Home quarters required to have an approved locking gun vault?

Sling your rifle over your shoulder everytime you get out at a 7-11 to or from work?
Lock it in a rack, lock the doors everytime you leave the vehicle unattended?
Regulations regarding where, when, and how the rifle could & could not be left behind in a vehicle.

Carry a rifle with you at off-base restaurants, theaters, WalMarts, barber shops, dentists?
Where do you put it while you're in the barber chair? The dentist's chair?
Off-base businesses are not going to spend the money to provide secure facilities to hold your M-16 when it's inconvenient to have it in your hands or over your shoulder.

Take it on vacation?

Should you only carry a visible M-16 in uniform?
If you carry one in civvies, are you prepared for LE response to a 911 Man With Gun call?
MANY LE responses?

Should you be allowed to take government hardware off base at all?
To & from work only?
Anywhere you want?

Should you only be allowed to check out a weapon on base, start of shift, and turn it back in at the end of shift?

How much expansion of armories, in terms of space and personnel, would be required to do that, assuming three shifts per day, with everybody (or even most) doing that?

Training?
Once a year, after Basic? Every other year? Extent? Minimum qualification standards?
How much would such a program, system-wide, cost in terms of increased ammunition use?
What personnel allocation would be required to keep up with that training in terms of range instructors?
If your installation doesn't have a firing range, can you "borrow" one for use at that level? How close? What would the logistics be in getting everybody there?
If your installation does have a firing range, is it large enough to run that many people through such a program?

Legal vulnerabilities?
Somebody leaves an M-16 lying around someplace on base "only for a minute!", and an unauthorized civilian or child has an AD with it.
Somebody leaves an M-16 in a car overnight off-base, the car gets broken into or stolen, and the rifle is subsequently used in a homicide.

All sorts of details, large & small, to be considered & dealt with.
Any impropriety by a service member off base with a government gun on their own time would leave that service branch vulnerable to a lawsuit and a smearing in the press.

You think it impossible that a 19-year-old E1 somewhere might give in to the urge to take an M-16 out in the boonies someplace & have some fun with a couple buddies, military or civilian?
I could see it happening in my day, and the current generation of GI (of whichever branch) can't have changed that much.

When I hauled an M-16 around all day long at work it involved mostly to & from and inside specific posts. Even there, it got old.
It's a constant baby that has to be tended.
Toting one through an office job day, moving around a base from building to building, transporting to & from home & base, or transporting around town off base, would get tiresome very soon.

If you've never done it, you wouldn't understand.

At all levels, from the individual grunt-level carrier to the command staff involved in considering, devising policy, and implementing the logistics, it is an involved issue.
Far from a simple "Just give 'em all a rifle!"

This just addresses that issue.
Handguns, personal concealed carry, and so on are other subjects.
Denis
 
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A U.S. Army General has also stated that arming soldiers is not an acceptable solution to the problem because of the high risk of NDs because the soldiers have not had enough training with sidearms.
That would appear to be an easy enough problem to fix.

I can't even recognize my country any more.
Agreed.
I entered the USAF in 1975. We were "advised", not "ordered", to travel between assignments in civilian clothes and not in uniform.
 
Denis,
Good summary of the complexities.

In the '70s, in Europe, due to the Baader-Meinhof Gang, the Red Army Faction, et al, some of us at certain locations were required to have weapons "immediately available", which is the highest state, up from "available" and "readily available."

We struggled with a lot of the issues you raise.

For handling M16s, we had broom clips on the edge of desks and work benches. Special plywood stands next to urinals (no kidding!), special holders in all our vehicles. Special racks in the chow hall. All were self-help, unfunded, emergency, projects. The longest stretch of constant carrying of an M16 and a Mod. 15 was about 18 months. As part of "Project Quick Fix" we also sandbagged everything that could be sandbagged, made many fighting stations using concrete culvert sections, etc. There were also many more specific, classified measures that we also took, in addition to lots and lots of training and exercises.

Overall it was a real pain. It absolutely destroys your work schedule. There were NDs. Arming a greater than normal group of people is a complex problem that has to be carefully considered and planned prior to execution if one wants any degree of safety and effectiveness.
 
Well, Denis, as a career military guy who went into law enforcement full-time upon retirement, I understand everything you say ...

Yet ... issuing everyone an M-16 seems to work well in Israel (a country in which I've had the pleasure of spending a bit of time) ... I recall one day at a beach in Haifa when a bunch of young female soldiers showed up, stacked their rifles in a nice pyramid, took off their BDUs ... black bikinis and automatic weapons, a great afternoon, what a memory.
 
Moxie,
England, 73-75.
Besides the 16 & the 15, I was also a designated M-60 gunner.
Try toting one of THOSE around. :)

People who don't live with a rifle all day don't understand.
But- you know what I'm talking about.
Denis
 
On A Lighter Note.......

I just ran across this some place on the internet today; (I had seen it before, and you may may have also ), but I thought others might enjoy it.......

The U.S.M.C. has just stated today on network TV.........

"It's up to God to judge the terrorists"

"It's our job to facilitate the meeting"

Charley C
 
Different culture, different defense prerogative.
In the past. From where I sit, kinda seems as though it's becoming more and more similar ... Twenty years ago, did any of us think Islamic terrorists would be attacking Americans on American soil?
 
Folks,

As traumatic as events since Thursday have been, discussions about uniform wear on the streets is too far outside the 2A focus of THR.
 
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