Old But Worth Repeating: Why, How & Where We Train, by Pat Rogers
- Thread starter Fred Fuller
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Corpral_Agarn
Member
Good stuff.
I can tell you that it is hard to be an instructor with no LE or Military background.
I can tell you that it is hard to be an instructor with no LE or Military background.
Phaedrus/69
Member
A great read! Thanks for the link.
MedWheeler
Member
Good points about getting training in general, but I wouldn't take a course taught by him.
He lost me when he implied that a Glock or similarly-triggered pistol is all you should show up with; he'd sneer at my Ruger P95 because it's a "crunchenticker." (I wonder if he could handle me showing up with my Service Six!?)
Also, that "how much is your life worth?" line really sticks to my craw when I see it here on THR, and he threw that out there as well.
He lost me when he implied that a Glock or similarly-triggered pistol is all you should show up with; he'd sneer at my Ruger P95 because it's a "crunchenticker." (I wonder if he could handle me showing up with my Service Six!?)
Also, that "how much is your life worth?" line really sticks to my craw when I see it here on THR, and he threw that out there as well.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
I don't think he implied anything. He stated a pretty well acknowledged fact of training - people show up with guns they rarely shoot and then have problems because they haven't spent any time training. He just used the DA/SA guns as an example.
I'm pretty sure he wasn't plugging Glock given his outspoken dislike of them.
MedWheeler
Member
Like this example..?
I get the part about untrained shooters showing up for training (imagine that.) But, if he has disdain for Glocks, and seems to be showing some for DA/SA's, that's not leaving a whole lot else. Maybe he's a 1911-guy (like Col. Cooper?)
Medwheeler,
I've trained with Pat 5 times. I can tell you from personal experience that I have never seen him put down or ridicule a students equipment unless on day one it was unsafe or unserviceable. I can tell you about a class where a student showed up with his daily carry weapons. TWO HK squeeze cockers.
I'm sure that he was referring to pistols that don't fit the shooters hand when he was talking about not being able to "break the low left hit due to the unnecessary double action".
When you see the number of students Pat does in a year, you quickly see what equipment works and what doesn't work. When you are in class, you aren't going to learn much if you are constantly fighting your equipment. Or you can't make that first round hit because the handgun you chose doesn't fit your hand.
I remember a carbine class where an entire tactical unit from a sheriffs department was enrolled. They brought their duty weapons including an M14 that was acquired through the 1033 program and had been chopped and modified by one of the big name companies that did that kind of work. It looked beautiful and I'm sure the M14 lovers here at THR would have drooled over it for hours. The problem was, it wouldn't function. By noon of the first day, that deputy was shooting a borrowed M4 so he had a functional carbine to complete the class.
The point Pat is making is that the time to sort out your equipment is before you get to class. That way you can actually get the training you paid for.
I've trained with Pat 5 times. I can tell you from personal experience that I have never seen him put down or ridicule a students equipment unless on day one it was unsafe or unserviceable. I can tell you about a class where a student showed up with his daily carry weapons. TWO HK squeeze cockers.
I'm sure that he was referring to pistols that don't fit the shooters hand when he was talking about not being able to "break the low left hit due to the unnecessary double action".
When you see the number of students Pat does in a year, you quickly see what equipment works and what doesn't work. When you are in class, you aren't going to learn much if you are constantly fighting your equipment. Or you can't make that first round hit because the handgun you chose doesn't fit your hand.
I remember a carbine class where an entire tactical unit from a sheriffs department was enrolled. They brought their duty weapons including an M14 that was acquired through the 1033 program and had been chopped and modified by one of the big name companies that did that kind of work. It looked beautiful and I'm sure the M14 lovers here at THR would have drooled over it for hours. The problem was, it wouldn't function. By noon of the first day, that deputy was shooting a borrowed M4 so he had a functional carbine to complete the class.
The point Pat is making is that the time to sort out your equipment is before you get to class. That way you can actually get the training you paid for.
MedWheeler
Member
Copy that, Jeff. Thanks.
That was the class. Imagine that I met a fellow THR member and didn't know it at the time.
LiquidTension
Member
He used to be. He now uses an M&P. Pat's main thing is to bring quality gear and practice with it before you get to class so you know that it works. If you're constantly fighting your equipment it holds up the whole class, pisses other students off, and is just plain unprofessional. And "quality" does not necessarily mean "the most expensive." In the first class I took with Pat there were two LaRue Costa guns that simply wouldn't run. In the next one there was some cheap M4 variant from Palmetto something or other (not PSA) that broke a bolt at only ~5,000 rounds. There was a $3k War Sport gun that choked a few years ago. The point is - practice with the equipment before you bring it to class.
Old Dog
Member
Rogers has indeed been known to mightily disparage the TDA (DA/SA) pistols, for sure. But that's about the only thing on which I don't agree with him ... (apparently he hasn't had to worry as much about "threat management" or learned to appreciate the long DA first pull as I have).
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