Registering a class III
- Thread starter Joshua M.
- Start date
- Status
Snyper
Member
There is no way to register a Class III firearm that wasn't registered prior to May 1986.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
There is no way if it wasn't registered before the 1986 cut-off date.
What is it?
rc
What is it?
rc
AWorthyOpponent
Member
This only applies to machine guns...not SBR, SBS, AOW, etc...
How do you know it was not registered? You can have an attorney contact NFA branch to find out. If it is, then all you have to do is get a copy and transfer...
How do you know it was not registered? You can have an attorney contact NFA branch to find out. If it is, then all you have to do is get a copy and transfer...
Well, supposedly, it was traded sometime just after WWII in Italy and shipped back I guess. Beretta MAB38, and was apparently put in the attic, and forgot about. The fella has no interest in firing it, but doesn't want to cut it up for the sentimental value that his father got it.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
The Beretta MAB 38 is a 9mm submachine gun.
It is not possible to register it now.
rc
It is not possible to register it now.
rc
mbogo
Member
Unless an amnesty period is declared by the U.S. Attorney General, unregistered MGs cannot be registered to a civilian (or trust); if I remember correctly, the last amnesty period was in 1968.
It is conceivable that a Class III dealer could make an inquiry of the NFA registry (perhaps through a FOIA request?).
mbogo
It is conceivable that a Class III dealer could make an inquiry of the NFA registry (perhaps through a FOIA request?).
mbogo
Last edited by a moderator:
Also I hope his buddy is aware of how seriously the ATF is willing to prosecute possession of unregistered machine guns. I think it's a pretty automatic ten years in the federal pen
Last edited by a moderator:
Telekinesis
Member
The ATF is very willing to prosecute people for possession of illegal machine guns, but it's not necessarily an automatic 10 years. That depends on a lot of factors in the trial.
From this point, the friend (and the OP and anyone else that the friend has told) need to keep their mouthes shut. Contact a lawyer and have them check with the ATF to see if it is in the registry. (don't ask a FFL because they don't have attorney/client privilege and FFLs usually want to stay far away from potentially illegal NFA weapons).
If it is unregistered, strip every single part out of the gun and cut up the receiver (the receiver is the only part that is contraband). Sell the parts to someone with a registered MG, and you'll likely recover a little bit of money.
Is there any chance it was demi led to be nonfiring before he passed?
bainter1212
Member
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2012
- Messages
- 1,175
What about that old lady in the northeast who found her dead husband's STG44 in a closet and brought it to a gun buyback? Remember, the police very kindly "helped her legally sell it"? It was all over the boards a year ago. How could she have legally sold that gun?????
dogtown tom
Member
Just like any other legally registered machine gun....on a Form 4.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
I suggest asking a Class III dealer for the best way to proceed. A shortage of amateurs in that group.
It's possible that he could de-mil it such that it could be a legal non-firing collectible. Or, possibly, converted to semi-auto, although I have no clue about the legality of that.
(Just sent a querying email to my Class III guy, asking.)
It's possible that he could de-mil it such that it could be a legal non-firing collectible. Or, possibly, converted to semi-auto, although I have no clue about the legality of that.
(Just sent a querying email to my Class III guy, asking.)
Last edited:
I'll relay the info to him, the way I understand him, he would like to keep it as normal looking as possible but he also wants it to be legal...he would gladly pay whatever it takes to leave it in its current state, but sounds like that is all but impossible. He says he forgot all a bout it till he seen it. The last time he seen it he was very young, and it woulda been in the early 60's, and remembered his dad saying it had been mad non functional, but everything sure seems in working order...It is a unique rifle, just YouTube the MAB, it's a damn shame that it would have to be destroyed....
Last edited:
edwardware
Member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2010
- Messages
- 4,424
I believe contraband NFA arms can be donated to a museum or a government entity with (careful) coordination with ATF. I know which I'd pick!
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
An answer to my email just arrived. I had asked:
Question: 1. Can it be legally de-milled to be a non-firing collectible and, 1A, be done without informing BATFE?
2. Can it be legally machined to be only semi-auto and then logged on a 4473?
The answer was yes and yes, with further details via visit tomorrow--Sunday--afternoon.
(This is bare bones; there may well be more to it than appears at this point.)
Question: 1. Can it be legally de-milled to be a non-firing collectible and, 1A, be done without informing BATFE?
2. Can it be legally machined to be only semi-auto and then logged on a 4473?
The answer was yes and yes, with further details via visit tomorrow--Sunday--afternoon.
(This is bare bones; there may well be more to it than appears at this point.
)
kanook
Member
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2009
- Messages
- 2,004
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/machinegun-destruction
2.5.1 Removal of machineguns and silencers from the scope of the NFA. Machineguns are defined
to include the receiver of a machinegun and the definition of silencer includes each component of a
27 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16)
28 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)
22
silencer. Therefore, to remove these weapons from the provisions of the NFA, the receiver of a
machinegun or all the components of a silencer must be destroyed.
The preferred method for destroying a machinegun receiver is to completely sever the receiver in
specified locations by means of a cutting torch that displaces at least one-quarter inch of material at each
cut location. ATF has published rulings concerning the preferred destruction of specific machineguns.29
A machinegun receiver may also be properly destroyed by means of saw cutting and disposing of certain
removed portions of the receiver. To ensure that the proposed saw cutting of a particular machinegun
receiver is acceptable, FTB should be contacted for guidance and approval of any alternative destruction
proposal. Note: a machinegun receiver that is not properly destroyed may still be classified as a
machinegun, particularly in instances where the improperly destroyed receiver is possessed in
conjunction with other component parts for the weapon.
A silencer may be destroyed by completely severing each component by means of a cutting torch that
has a tip of sufficient size to displace at least one-quarter inch of material at each cut location.
Concerning the outer tube(s) of a silencer, these components may be destroyed by crushing them flat in
lieu of cutting with a torch.
Anyone interested in destroying an NFA weapon by means other than described above should contact
FTB to discuss possible alternatives.
2.5.1 Removal of machineguns and silencers from the scope of the NFA. Machineguns are defined
to include the receiver of a machinegun and the definition of silencer includes each component of a
27 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16)
28 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)
22
silencer. Therefore, to remove these weapons from the provisions of the NFA, the receiver of a
machinegun or all the components of a silencer must be destroyed.
The preferred method for destroying a machinegun receiver is to completely sever the receiver in
specified locations by means of a cutting torch that displaces at least one-quarter inch of material at each
cut location. ATF has published rulings concerning the preferred destruction of specific machineguns.29
A machinegun receiver may also be properly destroyed by means of saw cutting and disposing of certain
removed portions of the receiver. To ensure that the proposed saw cutting of a particular machinegun
receiver is acceptable, FTB should be contacted for guidance and approval of any alternative destruction
proposal. Note: a machinegun receiver that is not properly destroyed may still be classified as a
machinegun, particularly in instances where the improperly destroyed receiver is possessed in
conjunction with other component parts for the weapon.
A silencer may be destroyed by completely severing each component by means of a cutting torch that
has a tip of sufficient size to displace at least one-quarter inch of material at each cut location.
Concerning the outer tube(s) of a silencer, these components may be destroyed by crushing them flat in
lieu of cutting with a torch.
Anyone interested in destroying an NFA weapon by means other than described above should contact
FTB to discuss possible alternatives.
I would consult a lawyer first. If you are going to go by the word of a dealer, make sure they show you the law.
kanook
Member
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2009
- Messages
- 2,004
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may...-which-not-registered-have-firearm-registered
The link above your quote is the answer that you seek.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Heh. It would take more time to build a jig than it would to bridge a quarter-inch gap with a stick welder.
Run that stick up inside and weld the bolt to the receiver and it's a one-way street to a wall-hanger.
And I'm nowhere near being a pro welder.
Run that stick up inside and weld the bolt to the receiver and it's a one-way street to a wall-hanger.
And I'm nowhere near being a pro welder.
I don't get it. Every time this comes up, and it does with some regularity, people claim that the owner can plug the barrel, or weld the gun up, or cut this or that and it will be legal. Or that they can just take it to some magic museum which will accept it no questions asked. Or they can keep it and shoot it because they have an honest-to-gawd deputy badge out of a corn flakes box. Or Barney Fife told them it was OK to keep it. Or it is OK if the owner is the heir of the GI who brought it back. Or ....
If the gun is in the U.S. and unregistered, the law and BATFE regulations are pretty clear. That gun is contraband. Possession is a felony. Welding or cutting it is an attempt to destroy evidence of a felony.
BATFE instructions on deactivating an NFA firearm apply ONLY to already registered guns (or ones in bond for import) that someone wants removed from the purview of the NFA. An unregistered gun is illegal; it can't be made legal. The felony of possession has already been committed.
Jim
If the gun is in the U.S. and unregistered, the law and BATFE regulations are pretty clear. That gun is contraband. Possession is a felony. Welding or cutting it is an attempt to destroy evidence of a felony.
BATFE instructions on deactivating an NFA firearm apply ONLY to already registered guns (or ones in bond for import) that someone wants removed from the purview of the NFA. An unregistered gun is illegal; it can't be made legal. The felony of possession has already been committed.
Jim
barnbwt
member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2011
- Messages
- 7,340
"There is no way if it wasn't registered before the 1986 cut-off date."
Well, not legally. Many, many rumors out there (of varying reliability, but some are solid) of machineguns belonging to the politically-connected making it onto the registry, even though their model type hadn't been manufactured prior to '86. That's one of the things that Hollis v Lynch(Holder) is requesting as discovery; whether the ATF has exercised authority to exempt particular applicants for Form 1's and others. The ATF is, not surprisingly, being suspiciously coy about the whole thing.
As far as a found machinegun; think of it as a great big, gun-shaped bag of heroine. Or a shielded container of illicit radiological material. Stable, but highly illegal, and now that 'the word is out' don't be surprised if investigators find this post and start working backwards to your friend.
1) The receiver is contraband; there is no way to dispose of it other than surrender to the ATF (you won't be prosecuted in the lobby for surrendering it)
2) Being contraband, the receiver cannot be legally modified into another configuration, including being destroyed. This would be destruction of evidence (now, a legally-imported, confiscated, or registered gun can be destroyed per ATF guidelines, then sold as scrap metal. But an illegal machinegun does not turn into 'scrap' upon being cut, legally; it is still evidence of its existence)
3) Like all laws that have a certain burden of proof to show in court, destruction, modification, or disappearance of the illegal item may prevent the Bureau from being able to pursue a case, but these actions are not legal, and any evidence of them could end up being just as dangerous as possession of the item itself.
4) 'Having once had an illegal machinegun at some point in the past' is basically un-prosecutable due to aforementioned proof requirements, so the most important thing is for your bud to ditch the burp gun as quickly as possible, preferably in a legal manner. Strip the parts into a kit, then through an attorney (to prevent preemptive Bureau action against you) arrange a surrender of the item to the ATF. There's a good chance you may be able to recover receiver parts after it is destroyed by them, but in the case of the MP38 that's no big loss, since it is a simple pipe tube gun.
TCB
Well, not legally. Many, many rumors out there (of varying reliability, but some are solid) of machineguns belonging to the politically-connected making it onto the registry, even though their model type hadn't been manufactured prior to '86. That's one of the things that Hollis v Lynch(Holder) is requesting as discovery; whether the ATF has exercised authority to exempt particular applicants for Form 1's and others. The ATF is, not surprisingly, being suspiciously coy about the whole thing.
As far as a found machinegun; think of it as a great big, gun-shaped bag of heroine. Or a shielded container of illicit radiological material. Stable, but highly illegal, and now that 'the word is out' don't be surprised if investigators find this post and start working backwards to your friend.
1) The receiver is contraband; there is no way to dispose of it other than surrender to the ATF (you won't be prosecuted in the lobby for surrendering it)
2) Being contraband, the receiver cannot be legally modified into another configuration, including being destroyed. This would be destruction of evidence (now, a legally-imported, confiscated, or registered gun can be destroyed per ATF guidelines, then sold as scrap metal. But an illegal machinegun does not turn into 'scrap' upon being cut, legally; it is still evidence of its existence)
3) Like all laws that have a certain burden of proof to show in court, destruction, modification, or disappearance of the illegal item may prevent the Bureau from being able to pursue a case, but these actions are not legal, and any evidence of them could end up being just as dangerous as possession of the item itself.
4) 'Having once had an illegal machinegun at some point in the past' is basically un-prosecutable due to aforementioned proof requirements, so the most important thing is for your bud to ditch the burp gun as quickly as possible, preferably in a legal manner. Strip the parts into a kit, then through an attorney (to prevent preemptive Bureau action against you) arrange a surrender of the item to the ATF. There's a good chance you may be able to recover receiver parts after it is destroyed by them, but in the case of the MP38 that's no big loss, since it is a simple pipe tube gun.
TCB
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
If the gun is disassembled and the receiver is cut per the above-mentioned "preferred method", BATFE has no further interest in it. They seek to bring charges if somebody finds one and takes it out to shoot and it gets reported. They are aware that there are thousands of unregistered bring-backs that are in the "forgotten in the attic" category. They operate on a "no harm, no foul" basis. IOW, yes, there is a criminal situation, but they think it's not worth bothering with.
The parts can be sold, often for good prices. Class III dealers regularly buy these as repair parts for registered full-auto guns.
For some of these, a semi-auto receiver for a "look-like" can use the parts to make a legal semi-auto. In some cases, the paperwork for a Short Barrelled Rifle is needed.
The existing receiver cannot be modified; it must be de-milled.
The parts can be sold, often for good prices. Class III dealers regularly buy these as repair parts for registered full-auto guns.
For some of these, a semi-auto receiver for a "look-like" can use the parts to make a legal semi-auto. In some cases, the paperwork for a Short Barrelled Rifle is needed.
The existing receiver cannot be modified; it must be de-milled.
Last edited:
Prince Yamato
Member
Here's what you need to do:
1) Get in touch with a lawyer, have him inquire about the weapon's legality. That's the safest and that's what most people do.
2) If weapon is legal, you're good to go.
3) If weapon is not legal you can either
a) turn it into the ATF for destruction
b) see if it can go to a museum
c) [this is kind of a sketchy gray area] if you know a Class 3 manufacturer really well, they can demil or remil it and make either a demo-only post sample MG or they can make a semi-auto.
d) do nothing and risk prison for what amounts to $50 worth of parts.
1) Get in touch with a lawyer, have him inquire about the weapon's legality. That's the safest and that's what most people do.
2) If weapon is legal, you're good to go.
3) If weapon is not legal you can either
a) turn it into the ATF for destruction
b) see if it can go to a museum
c) [this is kind of a sketchy gray area] if you know a Class 3 manufacturer really well, they can demil or remil it and make either a demo-only post sample MG or they can make a semi-auto.
d) do nothing and risk prison for what amounts to $50 worth of parts.
- Status
