1/2 scale AR-15

[pjeski]

So engrave the barrel, and hide it under the handguard?

There's no requirement for the engraving to be visible... just on the gun... somewhere, right?

Unless "conspicuous" has nothing to do with visible, that is not correct.

The "gun" has to be engraved. For the BATFE, that means the lower receiver. At least, that is my understanding of it when it comes to engraving ARs for NFA purposes.

The serial number has to be on the frame or receiver. The other information can be elsewhere.


Read section 7.4 of:
https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-7.pdf

 

[Trent]

The "gun" has to be engraved. For the BATFE, that means the lower receiver. At least, that is my understanding of it when it comes to engraving ARs for NFA purposes.

This isn't an AR though.

It looks similar to an AR but not one single part is interchangeable and no dimensions are the same. (In fact, no other parts with anything are probably interchangeable)

Marking would only be required anyway if it was an SBR. SBR markings need name, city, and state. Could put that along the bottom of handguard or something. (Not under; I didn't know that the other markings beside serial had to be conspicuous; thanks for the clarification pjeski.)

Will their tech folks want to examine it to make sure it doesn't go "BURRRP" when you pull the trigger?

 

[goon]

Does it have to be serial numbered if it is a gun for personal use, and not for resale?

This project is pretty cool. Still wondering how you can get around the SBR issue. You'll obviously want a stock just to make it look right, but it's almost certainly going to come in too short to be a "rifle."

 

[MachIVshooter]

Does it have to be serial numbered if it is a gun for personal use, and not for resale?

No. ATF FAQ alludes to a requirement, but no such statute actually exists.

Still wondering how you can get around the SBR issue. You'll obviously want a stock just to make it look right, but it's almost certainly going to come in too short to be a "rifle."

That is why I'm requesting "handgun" classification; the scale stock is far too small to be a functional buttstock. At maximum extension, the rear of the stock is about 1.5" back from the wrist end of my Radius.

In fact, no other parts with anything are probably interchangeable

The magazine is a Savage MK II mag, but it is modified as well; a stock MK II mag won't fit this gun, and the modified mag will no longer work in a MK II. Other than mag and springs, every single part is hand made.

Which does bring me to something I've wondered about, though it is inconsequential: When the "gun" is not yet complete, and the parts required to complete it must be manufactured, is it legally even a firearm yet? I mean, the receiver exists, but with nearly a dozen pieces still needing to be machined, it's not like a person could complete the weapon without a lot more machine work than what a "non-firearm" 80% receiver requires.

Just something I've pondered, and I'm not sure that there's any legal precedent to answer that question.

 

[pjeski]

No. ATF FAQ alludes to a requirement, but no such statute actually exists.



That is why I'm requesting "handgun" classification; the scale stock is far too small to be a functional buttstock. At maximum extension, the rear of the stock is about 1.5" back from the wrist end of my Radius.



The magazine is a Savage MK II mag, but it is modified as well; a stock MK II mag won't fit this gun, and the modified mag will no longer work in a MK II. Other than mag and springs, every single part is hand made.

Which does bring me to something I've wondered about, though it is inconsequential: When the "gun" is not yet complete, and the parts required to complete it must be manufactured, is it legally even a firearm yet? I mean, the receiver exists, but with nearly a dozen pieces still needing to be machined, it's not like a person could complete the weapon without a lot more machine work than what a "non-firearm" 80% receiver requires.

Just something I've pondered, and I'm not sure that there's any legal precedent to answer that question.

I would imagine since what you have as a lower is well past the point of being an allowable "80% Lower" (Firecontrol well, hole for trigger, holes for pins), that what you have is at this point an "Other/Reciever". You could argue that since it is not a proven design, or since it is not an AR, this wouldn't apply. But I think you'd lose the argument. Myself, I would not install a barreled upper unless I had the handgun determination from ATF, an approved Form 1, or the stock was no longer in my possession or control.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I would imagine since what you have as a lower is well past the point of being an allowable "80% Lower" (Firecontrol well, hole for trigger, holes for pins), that what you have is at this point an "Other/Reciever". You could argue that since it is not a proven design, or since it is not an AR, this wouldn't apply. But I think you'd lose the argument. Myself, I would not install a barreled upper unless I had the handgun determination from ATF, an approved Form 1, or the stock was no longer in my possession or control.

Like I say, it's inconsequential, just something I was thinking about, since although a completed receiver is legally a firearm, the normal case is that the remainder of the parts can be purchased and installed to make a functioning firearm. The parts required to make this a functional gun cannot be purchased & installed by an end user or typical gunsmith; they must be custom manufactured.

As for barrel legality, it's a non-issue, as I still have to purchase a barrel, and once I have it, it will still need to be cut & profiled for this application. I'm expecting I won't have an answer before Christmas, so that gives me a couple of months to keep looking for a good deal or get one ordered from Clark for $225.

 

[crazysccrmd]

Does it have to be serial numbered if it is a gun for personal use, and not for resale?

This project is pretty cool. Still wondering how you can get around the SBR issue. You'll obviously want a stock just to make it look right, but it's almost certainly going to come in too short to be a "rifle."

If Mares Legs are pistols this should be easily classified a pistol as well. It is blatantly obvious that no one wound be physically capable of shoulder firing this.

 

[pjeski]

If Mares Legs are pistols this should be easily classified a pistol as well. It is blatantly obvious that no one wound be physically capable of shoulder firing this.

A receiver doesn't have to be completed to the point that it takes no special parts or machining to be a firearm. It just has to be past the arbitrary level of completeness set by the ATF.

ETA: I hope they determine it's a handgun. Suspense will kill me.

 

[goon]

Yeah, I'm hoping this is classified as a "pistol" too. That would be the simplest course of action. It's obvious that this isn't some attempt to skirt a law - just a guy making something as a hobby.

 

[68wj]

Yeah, I'm hoping this is classified as a "pistol" too. That would be the simplest course of action. It's obvious that this isn't some attempt to skirt a law - just a guy making something as a hobby.

But then this thread will have to go to the pistol forum, and I never go there anymore.

On a serious note, I am hoping for pistol status to maintain the character of the project.

On a less than serious note, I can't decide whether it would be more entertaining to see it in a full size rifle case, or a fabricated 1/2 scale Pelican.

Keep up the good work OP!

 

[Trent]

There's nothing in the statutes about 80% anything, that's something gun owners made up all on their own.

The ATF either rules that it IS, or it ISN'T a firearm. Part of that definition would rely on a determination of "what is required to finish this" - e.g. is it "readily made" in to a functional firearm. If all you have to do is assembly work, or, maybe some light hand-tool work that doesn't require specialized knowledge... then yeah.. it's gonna be called a firearm.

However in this case we (nor the creator) even knows if it will WORK once it's done. There's no way in Hades the work to this point is going to be considered a "firearm" as it would take specialized knowledge, skills, and prints, along with substantial equipment and time, to complete the "soon to be, might be, might even possibly work as a" firearm.

This being said, since this is a *brand new* firearm design (even if it's scaled off something else), they're going to want to classify it. I would *expect* them to say "send us the functional prototype when it is done" which is what they *usually* do on brand new firearm designs.

Then they'll keep his gun for X months while the tech branch does their "thing" (part of which is determining if it can be readily converted to full auto; highly unlikely without serious fabrication work). Assuming all that goes well, they'll issue a letter. (I have one such letter here for a one off creation I own, that went through ATF tech labs.)

The process is long, but if you want to do it the right way... it is what it is!

On the "Markings" bit, the barrel / handguard won't do, and I retract that concept entirely. Century International got a hand-smack over that not long ago (which I wasn't aware of prior to yesterday), and clarified that ALL markings are to be done on the receiver or frame of a gun. Period. (Evidently they realized that people were swapping barrels out on imports and, as Century was marking BARRELS, it created a bit of a legal snafu since the import marks were lost, which created a certain tracing issue... or inability to DO any sort of tracing...).

Anyway.

Carry on.

 

[MachIVshooter]

we (nor the creator) even knows if it will WORK once it's done.

Oh ye of little faith.

I don't expect it to run right the first time out, but it will work. It will take some tinkering and possibly altering or re-making a couple parts to get a reliable semi-auto, but it absolutely will get there.

Making blowback guns ain't exactly rocket surgery. I already know that it'll strip rounds from the mag and feed them through the bore where the barrel will seat. I know that the hammer, sear and disconnector are working properly, just need stronger springs. I know that the firing pin, extractor and ejector will perform their functions when completed. Really the only X-factor is getting the bolt/carrier & buffer mass and recoil spring power worked out, which I feel will be better accomplished through T&E than pages of calculations that ultimately only get us in the ball park anyway. We're starting out very heavy on the spring, as I'd prefer a failure to cycle over a ruptured case head from a bolt opening too soon.

The combined mass of the bolt/carrier and buffer is 2.9 ounces; heavier than the slides of many .22 & .25 mouse guns, including my Bauer .25 (2.4 oz) and my Beretta 950 (2.6 oz).

I've built hammers, triggers, sears, firing pins, ejectors and extractors before for existing guns. I've just never before built a complete semi-automatic firearm from scratch.

 

[Trent]

I wasn't trying to say it wasn't going to work (eventually lol). Just talking from a legal perspective; it's a new design, and it's not a firearm until that design can go "bang". After seeing your work in this thread there is ZERO doubt in my mind about your ability to build a gun from scratch. In fact, I don't doubt your ability to build pretty much ANYTHING from scratch.

A buddy of mine just posted this up on Facebook, he's working late tonight on this. Just shy of 17,000 pounds of P-20 steel - for scale, that's a 3" dia cutter.



As soon as I saw it, I thought you'd get a kick out of it.

(You were talking about changing radius curves earlier, and CNC equipment.. that's a bit sonofagun)

 

[Desolo]

I love checking in on this thread, im suprised no one had suggested you make a (tiny) arm brace for it

You should do an A1 next if this one turns out well!

 

[jerkface11]

Trent now you need to get your buddy to make a 2x scale ar15 on that!!!

 

[MachIVshooter]

A buddy of mine just posted this up on Facebook, he's working late tonight on this. Just shy of 17,000 pounds of P-20 steel - for scale, that's a 3" dia cutter.

One side of a stamping die, from the looks of it.

Yeah.......I can't make anything near that size. lol. My Lagun is rated for 700 lbs on the table.

 

[kBob]

Weren't Tippman's little 1919 and M2 semi versions of MGs considered pistols by ATF?

Just asking. Something to think about.

This project is neat as all get out. Really like standing quietly to the side and watching this. I tried to talk a buddy into working on a 3/4 scale 1903a3 Springfield in .223 once.....and he threatened to have me committed.

-kBob

 

[Trent]

One side of a stamping die, from the looks of it.

Yeah.......I can't make anything near that size. lol. My Lagun is rated for 700 lbs on the table.

Yeah he said it's a mold for 'childrens car seats' ... which I dunno. Maybe he's telling the truth, maybe not.

The thought of using 17,000 pounds of steel to make a mold is crazy. He also told me they have several 12 foot lengths of 12" by 3" 7075-T6 sitting there that'll be turned in to chips soon. The thought of that made me sad. The potential!

I'd like to borrow that equipment for a week to do a reproduction of the Soviet DSHK, in semi-auto. (I have one I could reverse prints off of).

"just because!"

 

[P.B.Walsh]

This project is neat as all get out. Really like standing quietly to the side and watching this. I tried to talk a buddy into working on a 3/4 scale 1903a3 Springfield in .223 once.....and he threatened to have me committed.

-kBob

I'd like to have one! With a minature claw extractor and used AR-15 stripper clips!

 

[Zach S]

Yeah he said it's a mold for 'childrens car seats' ... which I dunno. Maybe he's telling the truth, maybe not.

That's the first thing I thought...

 

[MachIVshooter]

Yeah he said it's a mold for 'childrens car seats' ... which I dunno. Maybe he's telling the truth, maybe not.

The thought of using 17,000 pounds of steel to make a mold is crazy.

Probably. 7075 0r 2219 aluminum are more common for injection molds, but it is a recognized use of P20 tool steel, especially if you have lots of thin areas and pockets. The pressure that the molten plastic comes in at will just fold over those thin parts if the mold material is not strong enough. A good friend of mine runs a small time injection molding business out here, makes his own molds. He doesn't typically use steel, but if it is a very intricate design using higher strength polymers or nylons, the aluminum just won't cut it.

As for scale, let's put it this way: The mold he made to do this fellow's custom Frisbees is a 600 pound block of 7075-T6. The machine that injects the 3 ounces of plastic weighs over 20 tons, and holds the mold closed with 150,000 pounds of pressure.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Well, gonna have to remake the hammer. It wasn't being pushed down quite far enough by the carrier to engage the disconnector, so we tried to TIG a little material to the front of it. First pass went ok, but trying to build up the sides caused a problem:



Oh well. It needed a little more mass at the top anyway, and I didn't cut the first one in far enough to get a decent number of coils on the spring. I'll do it better this time!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just a little problem there! lol

 

[Trent]

Build it better, stronger, faster! You have the technology!

Hey, I don't have your skill on the mill, but I can at least do a little cheerleading from the sidelines.

 

[MachIVshooter]

It was a little warmer today, and the vehicle I had scheduled ended up being pushed out til tomorrow on account of parts availability, so I got the quad rail done. Unfortunately, copying the MI carbine rail I had at 50% resulted in the top of the quad rail and the top of the receiver being uneven by 0.036". That 13/16" radius I put on the receiver halves is screwing with everything. lol. Oh well, maybe I'll try again later, but this will ride for now. Machined from 1.5" 6061 round stock, rushed it a little with more eyeballing than I should have done, but it came out OK for attempt #1 in only 5 hours.







Also got the hammer remade, and dealt with extractor & firing pin:



Gets a pretty good grip:



Think I'll do the front sight next, then get back after the BHO, dust cover and FA.