10 MM discussion (Real world benifits VS other service calibers)

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Aqeous

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I have recently been warming up to the Idea of trading in my .45ACP for a 10 MM. So I thought I would begin a thread discussion on the subject.


I am not looking for a caliber war here, I am looking (specifically) what real world benefits (or lack of) the 10mm JHP can offer when pushed at Double Taps velocities.

My Opinion (as of today):

A .40 caliber projectile zipping along at 1400 fps is firmly within magnum velocities. I wounder why the term .40 magnum doesn't ever get thrown around, because for all intensive purposes that's exactly what the 10mm is.

Double Taps 10MM specs look like this:

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"


It looks VERY appealing. Makes me think of all those silly folks attempting to use Desert eagles for SD. :p The amount of power, velocity and expansion that these rounds exhibit look pretty good for whatever the shooter might have in mind. From SD to Black bear country.


I am mostly interested in the potential wound ballistics of this round. (and no I don't think a magic 10MM bullet to the toe is going to do the BG in) But it looks to me (by the numbers I have seen) that we are looking at IMPRESSIVE expansion coupled with enough velocity to create a pretty hefty exit wound. The grain weight has enough mass to plow threw bone with minimal deflection, and though they don't reach the 2,000 + fps mark where temporary cavity damage and fragmentation tend to occur they are much closer then normal service calibers. So I am guessing the BG will really feel a 165 gr JHP open up to 1.0" and go from 1400 fps to 0 in a nanosecond, assuming it doesn't exit out the back of him.


So . . . putting aside the over penetration argument for now. Might these rounds not combine the best of the .357 magnum with the best of the .40 S&W? Might the wound generation of the these rounds not be superior to most other service caliber/loads that are out there?


I await your responses . . .
 
I wounder why the term .40 magnum doesn't ever get thrown around, because for all intensive purposes that's exactly what the 10mm is.

Because 10mm Auto predates .40S&W, and is in fact the parent cartridge. I love 10mm, and will be picking up at least two guns chambered for it (Smith 610 revolver, uses moon clips and can fire .40S&W as well, and a Dan Wesson Razorback 1911).
 
I've been quite interested in the 10mm for a while, finances don't allow for me to pick one up right this second but I do believe one will make its way into my safe. I've often pondered that due to its speed/weight if it wouldn't be a great back country gun.
 
Not only is .45 cheaper if you plan on reloading 10mm good luck finding your brass! 10mm ejection is very vigorous I'm doing good to find half of it afterwards whereas with .45 I rarely lose more than 3% and often come back with more empties than I shot.

--wally.
 
The thing about the 10 mm is that you do need to reload if you want to shoot it. I manage to shoot about 200 rounds a month in mine. About half of them are factory loads, basically, .40 S&W, while the other half are rounds I loaded to "real" 10 mm power. That being said, I love my Glock 29, it is reliable, accurate and powerful. It costs a lot more to shoot than any other handgun I own but I made a financial commitment to master and maintain my skills with it. That, to me, seems to be the biggest difference beteen it and other service calibers.
 
The potential for a wide variety of loads is exactly why I purchased my 10mm. You already know about the top end with the Double Tap loads. The low end is just above a .40 loading. Here's a randomly picked loading from my Lyman manual:

.40S&W:
180gr jacketed HP
231 powder
Maximum load 5.6gr
Velocity 1015 fps

10mm:
same bullet
same powder
Minimum load 5.9gr
Velocity 1037 fps

The fastest load I see with a 180gr bullet out of a .357 tops out at 1101fps, with the vast majority of loads falling under 1000fps max. So yes, if comparing bullet weight and velocity between 10mm and .357 they are pretty close. As for wound ballistics, can't help you there. I mostly shoot at paper :)

+1 to what Wally said. My Witness Match throws brass very far away. Most of the time I end up scrambling up the side berm to pick up the empties.
 
In the real world, 10mm is a LOT more gun than any .45 ACP. It is the only choice in normal sized service autoloaders that I'd consider for hunting or woods carry, though I really prefer my revolvers for that sort of thing. It is every bit as powerful as the .357 magnum and can push a slightly heavier bullet, at least in handloads. I don't really pay attention to any calibers as far as factory ammunition. Bout all I buy is .22 and .22 mag and that's because I can't reload it. Both 10 and .357 mag can push near 800 ft lbs in their hot heavy bullet loadings. I get 785 ft lbs from a 180 grain XTP in my 6.5" Blackhawk. For any hunting application, the game is not going to know the difference, 10mm or .357 magnum.

Now, for self defense and especially for concealed carry, there are many other good or better choices IMHO, in application if not on paper. Personally, I carry a 9.
 
Wally makes a good point. I took (one of) mine out last week and it took about twenty minutes to find all the brass. Found some of it in the parking lot (behind the 10' apron, behind the 10' firing line pad [ twenty some feet behind me ]). :uhoh:

On the plus side for brass retention, I have both of the original Smith 610s (with both full moon and half moon clips for each). THERE you have a gun built to handle the 10mm and retain brass.

I also have a Smith 1006 that is a dream to shoot 10mm in.

That's one of the main differences, most guns in current production are not designed around that significant a round. A 36oz. gun in .45 is smooth and easy to shoot. The same gun in 10mm is perceptibly more harsh. That same 10mm round in a 42oz. 1006 is easy.

As far as the 10mm being a cross between the 40S&W and the .357, the 40S&W IS the FBI 10mm. That is to say the round specified by the FBI as 'their" round was put out by S&W (with a small primer in place of the large primer used by the 10mm) as the 40S&W. The loaded down 10mm version I shoot (about 10% below factory 10mm specs) is more than 10% above the .357s power.

The 10mm fits nicely between the .357 mag and the .44 mag power levels and gives you access to a semi-auto format to shoot it in.

The interesting item to me is that the "old" Winchester Silvertip in 10mm was loaded down from Hornady specs to make it better for self defense.

If I knew I was going into a gunfight, I'd bring a shotgun AND a rifle (and several friends with rifles). If I'm going for a walk in the woods (tree type or urban) the 10mm is very comforting.

P.S. I really like the 180Gr. Hornady XTPs in 10mm
 
Not only is .45 cheaper if you plan on reloading 10mm good luck finding your brass! 10mm ejection is very vigorous I'm doing good to find half of it afterwards whereas with .45 I rarely lose more than 3% and often come back with more empties than I shot.

--wally.
I have never had any problem finding brass. When I thought the problem might occur I stocked up but see in constantly in fliers from suppliers. Just look, there is plenty out there algthough not as inexpensive as 45ACP
 
I like my Glock 10 mm a lot but I will not be getting rid of my .45's either. I know finding ammo for the 10 is difficult in some areas but I usually buy from Georgia Arms at gunshows and the price difference between 10 mm and .45 is insignificant. You can buy from them on the net as well as other dealers at better prices.

I'm not sure that the 10mm offers any advantages on humans over the .45 other than paper ballistics. I see it as more of a specialty round that can be used at 3 different power levels depending on the need. Loaded at .40 S&W levels it is a soft shooting self defense round. Loaded to standard 10mm levels it is more effective againnst barriers with the right bullets and for longer ranges. The super hot loadings place it in the .357 mag range. I use mine mostly as my hiking and woods gun. From home to the trailhead it is loaded with mid-level loads for any drunks or other troublemakers I may encounter. Once in the woods the magazine is changed to hot Doubletap loads in case of the unlikely encounter with 4 legged trouble.
 
Thanks for the responses . . . :D


Anyone know anything about wound generation vs the 10MM? :scrutiny: Anyone seen a deer taken with a 10MM by any chance. Maybe info from the original FBI study?? Just fishing here, but every little bit helps . . .
 
There is member on the forum,Desertscout , that has taken deer with his 10mm G20, sorry i can't give a link to his post where he had photos
 
There is no reason the 10mm Auto couldn't be at least as effective as the .357 Magnum, which at the very least is plenty effective based solely on reputation. The 10mm Auto has the potential to produce similar velocities and energies, with the ability to handle heavier bullets with greater frontal area, and with correspondingly greater momentum.

With this performance comes a price. Like the .357 Magnum, the 10mm Auto, when loaded to its potential, requires a little more practice than other service calibers to reach and maintain a level of proficiency with. However, claims of excessive recoil are, IMO, greatly exaggerated. The .357 Magnum was the cartridge to have for decades and our grandfathers somehow managed not to break their wrists with it. I believe the 10mm Auto is within the level most could become proficient with if they wanted to, but most aren't willing to show that amount of dedication.

As for ejected brass--heavier recoil springs work, and are cheap. I have a 22 pounder in my G20. Problem solved.
 
Was offered the opportunity to shoot a mag from a full sized Witness a few months back.

Shoots great. Recoil is there, but way less than most .44 magnums.

16 rounds of 10mm impressed me in itself just as a huge amount of firepower on tap in a service sized pistol.

Overall though, for typical self defense roles, I think a .45 or .40 is better suited based on flash, noise and follow up shooting capabilities.
 
I love my Glock 20 and my EAA Witness. Both are a dream to shoot, although the Witness puts the brass into low orbit:rolleyes:.

The biggest problem I have had is just cost. The 10mm is expensive to shoot. Once I start hand loading I will be able to shoot more often.
 
I like the 10mm, and I've owned just about every one they make.

The one thing I do not understand is the debate over whether the 10mm's has the "right to exist." It seems like people are voting, and if the vote goes poorly, the 10mm goes out of existence. At the end of the day, it's just another pistol caliber.

We might not all agree on the .41 Mag, which by the way shoots flatter and hits as hard as the .44 Rem Mag. We may debate the need for the cartridge, but it's not a "mistake." There is plenty of ballistic overlap in the .357 going to a .41, and then the .41 going to a .44 Mag. In fact, some firewall loads for a .45-70 are actually lower pressure loads for the .458, and no one seems to complain about that.

I like the 1911 platform. But if I was saving my hide, I wouldn't care if you handed me a .45 ACP or a Delta Elite.

About the only thing I can see in favor of the 10mm to tip the scales is that in a 175 grain bullet loading, the 10mm is then better for whitetail deer.
 
lets see 10mm
cons pros
1) kicks hard 1- magnum power
2)expensive ammo 2- highly versatile
3)hard to find ammo 3- higher capacity
4) overpenetration 4- better hunting ability
5) huge flash and muzzle blast 5-long range (for pistol)
 
cons pros
1) kicks hard 1- magnum power
2)expensive ammo 2- highly versatile
3)hard to find ammo 3- higher capacity
4) overpenetration 4- better hunting ability
5) huge flash and muzzle blast 5-long range (for pistol)
I'm sorry but most of this is simply not the case.
The 10mm may kick hard in steel-framed guns but it is a pussycat in the Glock. My wife loves mine.
Ammo is expensive if you don't reload. If you do, it's no higher than anything else.
Ammo may not be available at your local hardware store but it is not remotely "hard to find".
Yes, it is an over-penetrator, depending on what the job is that has been called upon to do.
No sir. The muzzle flash and blast is only marginally more than a .40 in a comparable size gun and barrel length.

Yes, I have killed a couple of deer with mine. Here's the one I got last year at 112 yards. The 180 gr. bullet traveling at 1300 fps went completely through the deer and didn't slow down. I was a little disappointed in the performance of the XTP bullet but it did the job. I have posted this a couple of times and it can be found on other boards. I'm not trying to flood the internet with the story but people keep asking and I keep answering;)

1106070741.jpg


Here's the lungs out of that deer...

IMG_10mmlungs.jpg
 
flying brass

Quote "What success have you guys had at getting the brass-ejection under control, in a Witness or a 1911?"

Most 10mm pistols are notorious for being undersprung and will "put the brass in low orbit." I own a full size EAA in 10mm and have changed the recoil spring to a 20# Wolff and the brass stays in the same county now.

The "hotter" the load, the greater the need for a stronger recoil spring.

But don't just change the spring for the fun of it as it allows the slide to slam into battery harder and can crack slides.

I use the stock spring when shooting .40 cal in the conversion barrel on the Witness.
 
What success have you guys had at getting the brass-ejection under control, in a Witness or a 1911?

I've tried recoil springs of 20, 22, & 24 lbs and shortening the ejector. Made only minor difference that was insignificant given how close the weeds encroach to our shooting positions at the range I use.

--wally.
 
I never could figure out a brass ejection answer.

My Bren Ten tossed the brass straight over my head and into the next county. Reloads in my Delta Elite were in the typical "Colt pattern" of slightly to the right and back--but scattered. My Double Eagle Colt 10mm dropped them into a tiny little pile--many times I could hear the "clink" of the brass bouncing off each other.

To be far, the Double Eagle had a recoil assembly out of a muskrat trap. Yikes.
 
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