10mm Failure with Damage

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by **Brian19**, May 6, 2021.

  1. **Brian19**

    **Brian19** Member

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    Thanks for all the input. I’ll be interested if Kriss has any findings when I send it back.

    As far as what I’d do different, obviously my confidence is shaken. I did work up this load and I did use a chrono that averaged a little over 1250 FPS and inspected the cases along the way which did suggest any issues as you can see from that pic I posted of those cases. I will definitely go back and start with a much reduced charge looking more at Hodgdon’s site as the powder OEM versus other sources.

    As far as the Lee Bulge buster, I’m not sure. Some mixed opinions here, and mine is as well.

    As well, I also question if it my error at all, although I’ll still proceed with caution.

    in searching, I found this on YouTube which looks similar to my failure. Skip to 2:30, and an interesting comment he makes at the end.

     
  2. rfwobbly

    rfwobbly Member

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    IMHO, this is wrong thinking.

    IMHO, this is correct thinking.

    The "bulge" is not the problem, it is merely a symptom of a problem. It is an abnormality that points to the existence of a problem.
    1. The first issue is that your particular load and chamber combination are creating bulged brass.
    2. The second issue is that signs are being ignored, and bulged brass is continuing to be reloaded.

    Let me put it this way... If there was a submarine for sale on Ebay and the hull had been previously crushed by excessive pressure, BUT the seller claimed the damage had been fixed by hammering everything out from the inside with sledge hammers. Would you go down is such a submersible ? No way ! The crushing by water pressure changed the metal. And then all that hammering changed it yet another way. There's no way the metal of the vehicle when NEW is the same as the metal after being repaired. But this is exactly what the tool has done. The tool has addressed the visual, without addressing the changes to the metal.

    In the same way, you can buy lots of reloading tools, but that does not mean that you are therefore free to indiscriminately use them on whatever cartridge case you might generate or find laying about. With ownership of the tool comes the responsibility to use it wisely.

    And always remember this: You don't know what you don't know. There is always 100 times more knowledge about any subject than you are aware of. So just because you didn't know, is not an excuse. What any person should be saying is:
    1. Since what I don't know can kill me, I should be trying to learn more before I take any action.
    2. "Walk before trying to run", thus I should begin at the Starting Load and work up slowly while looking for issues.
    3. I should take ANY abnormality as a sign to STOP ! and fully investigate before going further. This because what I don't know can kill me.
    Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
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  3. BreechFace

    BreechFace Member

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    So how much borrowed time is a person on with a Kriss Vector in 10mm before this happens...asking for a friend.
     
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  4. rfwobbly

    rfwobbly Member

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    This question assumes the gun is itself inherently flawed. It's not so much the gun, but rather how the gun is used. The USER must learn the gun's limitations and then use it accordingly.

    Let's just suggest the gun has an unsupported chamber, and that any cartridge above a PF of 150 produces a bulged case. Then the answer might be that cases from cartridges loaded to above PF 150 must not be reloaded. That would be an appropriate response that addresses the limitations of the gun by the user.

    Your question directs all blame to an inanimate "thing", without placing any responsibility on the person using it. With all due respect, I reject that thinking.

    All the best.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  5. BreechFace

    BreechFace Member

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    I agree in not blaming an object, solely.

    But the fact of the matter is that design can have issues. And I’m not saying the Kriss Vector is a bad design, but if examples of OOB detonations become common then it starts to raise design flaw flags. So while I get your point I reject the premise that one cannot blame defective objects for personal risk.

    And where in my question did I absolve the user from any responsibility? :confused:

    Does Ford still think it a good idea to put a gas tank at the rear end of their economy cars, a la the Pinto?

    Or how about a Walker Remington 700 trigger, are all instances merely user error, or are there design flaws?
     
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  6. Bfh_auto

    Bfh_auto Member

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    Both above comments have good points.
    You can take the limitations and work with it. Or say it has limitations I'm not willing to accept.
     
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  7. **Brian19**

    **Brian19** Member

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    Thank you for taking time for the response, very helpful.

    I wouldn’t say I ignored the issue, in fact, quite the opposite. I was very cognizant and concerned. Some more history since owning the gun... I first purchased 1000 once fired casings. After two additional reloads, many of them were not Plunking in my gauge. They would plunk just fine in the barrel of the vector, but not the gauge (which I was happy with, suggesting the gauge had a tighter tolerances than the barrel). I started gauging the brass after resizing and I would toss the ones that did not fit aside. I then stopped using that set of brass since more and more weren’t gaging over time and purchased another 1000 once fired cases and started anew.

    I did not think I was doing anything wrong at this point. The bulged brass was happening over time, and not just from a single firing. I thought that this is what would happen when using a gun with an unsupported barrel. Yes, this could be my error point.

    Since I had accumulated several bulged cases, I recently bought that Lee bulge buster and the incident happened on only the 18th round of bulge busted brass I shot.

    I would also like to ask, if bulge brass exists in the way like I mention above, but no other signs of over pressure exist and chronograph seemed normal, what would be the next course of action?
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  8. **Brian19**

    **Brian19** Member

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    Thank you again for all providing good feedback. As I’ve been focused on the bulged brass plus over pressure being the root cause, is it possible to tell from the photos if that type of failure would look like this? Or does it appear too much of the round was out of battery when it detonated? If you look at the where the light is reflecting, that brass is bent and formed around the feed ramp. Doesn’t that suggest a good amount of the round was sticking out when that happened. CFD6D62D-EFAD-4F7D-AEEF-BEB29EC10BE9.png
     
  9. rfwobbly

    rfwobbly Member

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    As a mechanical engineer and machine designer, I think we are in agreement. There are very, very few machines that don't have a weakness. This is the fuel for the red/ blue/ green reloading machine debate. This is the reason ammo for a one brand of 9mm may not work so well in another. The proofs are everywhere.

    I don't know the Kriss Vector, so I'm not nit-picking the gun. I'm simply saying that on the surface it appears the chamber in question will produce bulged brass over a certain power level. Therefore, the user should reduce the PF of their reloads OR shoot only factory ammo OR buy a replacement barrel.

    And BTW... it's probably safer to use the Bulge Buster on the brass before reloading.

    All the best.
     
  10. Mk-211

    Mk-211 Member

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    I was looking at the first pic of your brass, are those from your gun? Were they reloads or factory?

    From what I see in the few pieces of brass shown, high primers on some. Could just be the way the pic was taken but the primers on some of them look high.

    Also, how much of the case is supported? It looks like the last 1/8th inch or more isn't supported. Of course if this is range pick up and not from your gun... none if this matters.

    If it is from your gun, it needs to be looked at and if those primers are high, you need to check your loading set up.
     
  11. **Brian19**

    **Brian19** Member

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    That’s the camera perspective. The primers are all set slightly sub flush. Yes, about 1/8” is unsupported. In the past when I compared mine to other barrels (online) that are notoriously unsupported, I thought the Kriss wasn’t as bad.
     
  12. EricBu

    EricBu Member

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    My experience is that the gun has an issue with being likely to fire out of battery. My 9mm blew on factory ammo. There's just to many guys out there that had kabooms. So the question is....how can you mitigate that? Eventually, if you shoot enough, you're going to have some sort of failure. Whether that's a round that doesn't fully chamber because of faulty ammo, or because the gun is dirty, or because the stars are just aligned against you that day, whatever...and if that round does not fully chamber.....the Kriss is going to fire out of battery, and you're going to get a kaboom. So really, the only valid mitigation paths here are, keep that gun OCD clean. When you clear it at the range, use a light and give the chamber more than just a cursory examination, and be mindful of your ammo. Maybe for the Kriss, buy some new brass, maybe case gauge every round. Depends on how much you love that gun, but the more anal you are, the less likely you'll have a round not completely chamber, and the less likely you'll have a kaboom. But bottom line, it's going to happen. Maybe you'll be lucky.......maybe it'll be 20K rounds, or 50K rounds before that happens........or maybe it's 5 rounds into next weeks range trip. It's going to happen. The gun is just not ready for prime time. It's a neat concept, they shoot amazingly nice, but it's a time bomb. If you like it, roll your dice, and drive on. If you're not in love with it, sell it. And for god's sake, under no circumstances, use the mag well as a grip. I would have lost the fingers on my left hand if I'd have been doing that, no question.
     
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  13. Warpiece

    Warpiece Member

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    Is there a way to check on this particular firearm how far out of battery it has to be before it can't fire? If so, is the gun function enough that you could check it?
     
  14. Bcwitt

    Bcwitt Member

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    Differing data from one source to another just goes to show hand loading is not an exact science. Always workup loads on a case by case basis. Not sure that caused this problem, but every firearm is different.
     
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  15. Blue68f100

    Blue68f100 Member

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    I'm not familiar with that gun but is there a way for you to hold the bolt back? If so you may be able to see how far back it can go and still fire. Another option if there is not a way to hold the bolt back is make some dummy rounds long to hold the bolt back. Some guns like the AR will still allow the hammer to fall but will not strike the FP.

    An any case use a dummy round so NO ONE gets hurt when it fires. May have to be a live primer (No powder) for you to know. If this is the case you may have to drill out a couple of bullets to vent the gas to keep from lodging the bullet.
     
  16. The Glockodile

    The Glockodile Member

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    Haven’t seen the interior of the gun - but can you stick spark plug gap measurement shims between the bolt head and breech face, then fire?
     
  17. **Brian19**

    **Brian19** Member

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    In the current state, I haven’t removed that failed casing so I can’t do these types of tests. I plan to leave the casing there when I send the gun for service as I want them to have that evidence in the hope it will help them with a root cause determination.
     
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  18. GarrettJ

    GarrettJ Member

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    That's kind of interesting. I think it wasn't all that long ago that Hodgdon listed a noticablly higher load for that powder/bullet combo.

    As far as I was albe to tell, when the Hodgdon 2021 Reloading magazine hit the bookshelves a few months ago, the data published there was the same as what they had on their website. That publication lists 8.5 to 9.5 gr. Longshot with a 180 gr. Sierra JHC.

    I have loaded a 180 gr. jacketed bullet with as much as 9.1 gr. of Longshot to run in the Colt Delta Elite and the Ruger Blackhawks.

    Actually, go back and look. Hodgdon lists a range of 7.0 to 8.2 for both the 180 and 200 gr. XTP. Makes me wonder if they messed up somewhere.

    I was attempting to cross reference with some of my other manuals, but none of the others list Longshot. Which is kind of odd, as it's one of the better powders for that caliber.
     
  19. **Brian19**

    **Brian19** Member

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    As an update to this, my repaired gun arrives back tomorrow, but unfortunately no further info is provided. There was no cost to me and I tried to contact them to ask if they could tell me what the root cause may have been, but there was no reply from them. Yes, I did disclose about it being reloaded ammo on the service request. Maybe the $90 repair (that was the total of the invoice before they zeroed it out) isn’t worth them arguing with a customer.

    Unfortunately, I’ve found no figurative smoking gun to what happened. But some good advice from the members and there will be some things I will change going forward.
     
  20. gnappi

    gnappi Member

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    +1, bulged brass if I ever get it gets tossed.

    Back in the days when everyone was trying to "make major" with .38 supers and unsupported ramps in 1911's I had three cases blow. All three shattered the wood grips, blew out the mag but the steel framed 1911 didn't have any ill effects. I sold the Colt and shot .45's from then till the 10 and .40 took its place :)
     
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  21. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    If it is a matter of too much unsupported case out of the chamber, than it is only a matter of time till a case head blows, and right at the location where this case ruptured. Cases are also made to tolerances plus minus.

    This year I talked to a cartridge manufacturer who was helping with the administrative work at a Smallbore Prone Regional. Not that he is pulling his hair out about it, but he is seeing a high number of gun designs where case head support is too close to the cartridge web. Don't know if the way to express his feelings are frustration or exasperation. If that sidewall is not supported, there will be problems. I don't know how you fix that by reloading practices alone.

    Without gauging the weapon, and running pressure tests on the OP's ammunition, I don't see a path to definitively determine the cause and solution. However, I am always a great believer in cutting your loads. As the OP is using over manual max reloads, it could be as simple as an over pressure cartridge blowing out the case head. In my opinion, these high pressure pistol cartridges are an accident waiting to happen, due to the lack of safety margin that exists at those pressures.
     
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  22. Mr.Revolverguy

    Mr.Revolverguy Member

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    I am going to keep this short. Everyone has good comments on the other hand I have first hand experience just to beat tonight to type it out. I would NOT shoot hot loads out of the 10MM Vector not in its factory setup. The spring is WAY to light even some loads from BB the case head was being ripped off brand new brass. I worked with Kriss and found there is a new flat wire stiffer recoil spring. The original spring was to weak and recoiled in a violent way and before this thing blew you should have been able to tell that in your shoulder, not being a smart butt very serious here. The new spring is HARD to change, what ever they use as loctite I had to take a torch to it without melting the rod. It will take a good 30 minutes, (heat cool process) this will not come undone with elbow grease. The violent or fast opening from the bolt with weak spring also has the potential to crack the frame.

    By the way I am a big fan of 10MM does not make me an expert but for some light reading and years of testing with results in a spreadsheet go here https://dayattherange.com/?page_id=6173
    Also see this video for what I am talking about and when I first discovered what was going on. A few calls and emails I am all good now. With the 10mm club I belong to others knew about what I was doing and called Kriss and got replacement springs immediately. Me or any of my buddies have had issues and we still fire factory 10MM 100%.

    I have loaded 8.9gr longshot with 175gr lead and they are HOT chronograph results in this same spreadsheet. Then I spoke with a very popular boutique shot that told me they reduced their load from 8.8gr of longshot down to 8.4gr of longshot because of erratic behavior and reports of their ammo blowing up firearms. Not rumor not hear say a face to face conversation.

    More than anything I am glad you are ok.
     
  23. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Great Post by the way. I looked for an exploded diagram of the Kriss and did not find one. Is this mechanism strictly a blowback?

    Very interesting video by the USMC retired Devil Dog. His Colt, which is a locked breech mechanism functioned perfectly well whereas Kriss must have blown the casehead on the first shot. The Kriss has a longer barrel and residual pressures would be higher at unlock, compared to the Colt. And if the Kriss is a delayed blowback, the breechblock movement could be too much, for the pressure curve. I can see how going to a heavier recoil spring would help in the Kriss. A heavier spring would have a tiny effect on breechblock movement. Blowback systems are all based on inertia. Interior case pressure followed by the weight of the breech block are the primary contributors to the velocity of the breech block at unlock.

    Those high pressure pistols rounds do not leave margin for error. And if the powder, bullet, case, and primer combination are even the slightest erratic at pressure, the pressure curve will spike. Humans do not think in terms of the exponential function, and the slope of the smokeless powder pressure curve is exponential. As Al Bartlet said, "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function."



    These high pressure pistol cartridges are operating right at the yield and ultimate limits of brass, and therefore they are more prone to blowup than cases operating at lower pressure levels. And then, without pressure equipment, you really don't know the pressure spread nor how smooth the pressure curve of the load in use.
     
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  24. forrest r

    forrest r Member

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    This is why we switched to 9mm bbl's. We'd fit 6" 9mm bbl's in or 38super raceguns and run 160gr cast bullets in them to make major back in the 90's.
     
  25. rfwobbly

    rfwobbly Member

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    Check the chamber....
    wKHs4Uhl.jpg
     
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