jack44
Member
The .45 is a man stopper! bigger wider bullet then the 10mm
10mm or .45 1911
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mljdeckard
Member
^^You do realize that the 10mm has more energy @100 yards than a .45 has at the muzzle, right? If both rounds are using premium jhp bullets, the difference in expanded diameter is negligible, if any. No one has ever said the 10mm is a poor manstopper.
AKMtnRunner
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Energy isn't everything. What each projectile does with it, is.
mljdeckard
Member
So, if both expand to a near-identical diameter....
mljdeckard
Member
Also the .45 ACP can shoot the .45 Super, all you need is to put in tougher springs. I load for the .45 Super and it's good stuff. 200gr JHP @ 1350 fps, 230gr JHP at close to 1250 fps, and a 255gr hardcast at near 1200 fps, or 280gr hardcast at around 1100 fps. Not quite 460 Rowland, but good enough and you really don't need a new barrel.
Plus, driving JHP bullets faster than they're designed doesn't always equal better. Even with .45 Super you end up pushing .45 ACP designed bullets so fast they come apart and it negatively effects penetration. Of course for hunting, hardcast is better anyway.
Same with 10mm and .40. Warm .40/warm 10mm can push bullets to the point of bullet failure and lower penetration, so I'm not real sure why the 10mm crowd is always wanting faster and faster when the bullets aren't designed for it.
Plus, driving JHP bullets faster than they're designed doesn't always equal better. Even with .45 Super you end up pushing .45 ACP designed bullets so fast they come apart and it negatively effects penetration. Of course for hunting, hardcast is better anyway.
Same with 10mm and .40. Warm .40/warm 10mm can push bullets to the point of bullet failure and lower penetration, so I'm not real sure why the 10mm crowd is always wanting faster and faster when the bullets aren't designed for it.
mljdeckard
Member
So, you think that premium jhp ammo for 10mm is using bullets that weren't designed for that velocity?
Fishslayer
Member
With perhaps one or two exceptions, there really aren't any 10mm bullets designed to take full advantage of warm 10mm/warm .40 velocity. For example you can find .357" bullets designed specifically for the .357 Mag, and others that are better designed for use in the 38 Special. Or if you want a fast JHP in a 454 Casull, you could choose the 240gr XTP Mag, which will hold together much better than the 250gr XTP which is rated for far less velocity. Another good example would be .355" 9mm bullets compared to .355" 357 Sig bullets designed for the extra velocity.
You don't really see this with the 10mm. Most .400" JHP bullets are designed around "typical" .40 S&W velocity. This doesn't mean that you can't drive them faster, since people obviously do. Driving them somewhat faster usually doesn't present a problem, but when people equate faster to being better, they often drive the bullets too fast. This can result in bullet fragmentation, or complete failure and almost always results in less penetration, not more. This even applies to FMJ and hardcast bullets, since extra speed even in those can result in less penetration, it just depends.
You don't really see this with the 10mm. Most .400" JHP bullets are designed around "typical" .40 S&W velocity. This doesn't mean that you can't drive them faster, since people obviously do. Driving them somewhat faster usually doesn't present a problem, but when people equate faster to being better, they often drive the bullets too fast. This can result in bullet fragmentation, or complete failure and almost always results in less penetration, not more. This even applies to FMJ and hardcast bullets, since extra speed even in those can result in less penetration, it just depends.
And if one has a Fackler-ian view of how handgun rounds incapacitate, then loss of penetration in exchange for faster expansion or larger temporary wound cavity is a bad thing. Of course, if one does not share that view, then the extra speed may be desired.
I don't have a problem with speed as long as it's not beyond what the bullet can withstand.
A few posts that back up what I'm saying:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8737479&postcount=60
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8738536&postcount=66
I don't have the means to conduct the highest quality, most well rounded tests, but here's an example. Both 200gr bullets, both fired from a .40 S&W. The one on the left is a 200gr Nosler JHP with a muzzle velocity of around 1100 fps (4" bbl). The bullet on the right is a 200gr Hornady XTP with a muzzle velocity of around 1,225 fps (6" barrel). While the XTP did shed some weight, about 15-20gr, but obviously penetrated much better than the Nosler:
I'm not saying the Nosler wouldn't work, but I'll take the XTP if I'm going in the woods.
Another example is driving .45 ACP bullets too fast, this time in the .45 Super (G21 Gen4 w/KKM bbl). The fragmented bullet is a 230gr Speer Gold Dot with a muzzle velocity of around 1200 fps and the other intact bullet is a 250gr Gold Dot that has a muzzle velocity of around 1050-1100 fps. Both are similar in their hollow cavities, but I've found the deeper cavity Gold Dots don't hold up nearly as well as shallow cavity Gold Dots. In this case, 1200 fps is a bit much where as 1050-1100 wasn't. Oh and the 250gr Gold Dot driven at warm .45 Colt velocities will perform just like the 230gr Gold Dot shown below, it'll come apart. I like the 230gr Gold Dot, but I'm going to keep it below 1100 fps. In the .45 ACP, Power Pistol will get it moving at close to 1,000 fps, which is just about right.
A few posts that back up what I'm saying:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8737479&postcount=60
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8738536&postcount=66
I don't have the means to conduct the highest quality, most well rounded tests, but here's an example. Both 200gr bullets, both fired from a .40 S&W. The one on the left is a 200gr Nosler JHP with a muzzle velocity of around 1100 fps (4" bbl). The bullet on the right is a 200gr Hornady XTP with a muzzle velocity of around 1,225 fps (6" barrel). While the XTP did shed some weight, about 15-20gr, but obviously penetrated much better than the Nosler:
I'm not saying the Nosler wouldn't work, but I'll take the XTP if I'm going in the woods.
Another example is driving .45 ACP bullets too fast, this time in the .45 Super (G21 Gen4 w/KKM bbl). The fragmented bullet is a 230gr Speer Gold Dot with a muzzle velocity of around 1200 fps and the other intact bullet is a 250gr Gold Dot that has a muzzle velocity of around 1050-1100 fps. Both are similar in their hollow cavities, but I've found the deeper cavity Gold Dots don't hold up nearly as well as shallow cavity Gold Dots. In this case, 1200 fps is a bit much where as 1050-1100 wasn't. Oh and the 250gr Gold Dot driven at warm .45 Colt velocities will perform just like the 230gr Gold Dot shown below, it'll come apart. I like the 230gr Gold Dot, but I'm going to keep it below 1100 fps. In the .45 ACP, Power Pistol will get it moving at close to 1,000 fps, which is just about right.
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Right, right, I get that. My point is that some theories of incapacitation don't view fragmentation as a problem, nor do they view penetration beyond a certain amount as beneficial.
Expressed another way, depending on how you think bullets incapacitate, you will want bullets to do different things. I'm not expressing an opinion about which terminal ballistics theories are correct, just pointing out that they drive what you think "good" performance is.
Expressed another way, depending on how you think bullets incapacitate, you will want bullets to do different things. I'm not expressing an opinion about which terminal ballistics theories are correct, just pointing out that they drive what you think "good" performance is.
orionengnr
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I own 1911s in both .45acp and 10mm, and I handload for both.
An alloy-framed, Commander-sized 1911 in .45 acp is a nice size and weight for carry or range use (~28 oz.) At that, you can get an alloy-frame in 3" size as well (24 oz.). In 10mm, you need a steel frame (36-38 oz.), which (for me) takes it out of EDC consideration. To clarify, I have done it, but my back protests these days.
Edited to add: I see that in your follow-up post, you mention CC use. So that may be something to consider. While my 10mm is a Commander-size, to get the most out of the 10mm, most recommend a 5" barrel. A full-size steel 1911 puts us up to 40-42 oz.; all quoted weights are empty. Some people carry a 5" steel 1911; if you wish to join them, more power to you. Just examine your options and do your homework before you commit.
You can find .45acp brass any and everywhere. Finding 10mm range brass is like finding a unicorn's sunglasses. Plan on buying new stuff from Starline or buying factory ammo and shooting it off for brass.
I own the 10mm because it is unique, it is fun, and because I can. It is an expensive and exotic toy. If I were to sell one tomorrow it would be the 10mm, without question.
An alloy-framed, Commander-sized 1911 in .45 acp is a nice size and weight for carry or range use (~28 oz.) At that, you can get an alloy-frame in 3" size as well (24 oz.). In 10mm, you need a steel frame (36-38 oz.), which (for me) takes it out of EDC consideration. To clarify, I have done it, but my back protests these days.
Edited to add: I see that in your follow-up post, you mention CC use. So that may be something to consider. While my 10mm is a Commander-size, to get the most out of the 10mm, most recommend a 5" barrel. A full-size steel 1911 puts us up to 40-42 oz.; all quoted weights are empty. Some people carry a 5" steel 1911; if you wish to join them, more power to you. Just examine your options and do your homework before you commit.
You can find .45acp brass any and everywhere. Finding 10mm range brass is like finding a unicorn's sunglasses. Plan on buying new stuff from Starline or buying factory ammo and shooting it off for brass.
I own the 10mm because it is unique, it is fun, and because I can. It is an expensive and exotic toy. If I were to sell one tomorrow it would be the 10mm, without question.
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dprice3844444
member
buy a 10mm with 45 conversion bbl and spring
Buck13
Member
Not very expensive from these guys.
https://us.armscor.com/products/
Reports of rapid copper fouling when new. Are fire-lapping bullets available in .401?
Peter M. Eick
Member
I have 10mm and 45acp 1911's. Looking back on it, I would recommend you stay with the 45acp.
10mm promotes going for power and while the 1911 can take it. it was not meant for it. You will suffer more damage and problems in the long run. Stay with a 45.
10mm promotes going for power and while the 1911 can take it. it was not meant for it. You will suffer more damage and problems in the long run. Stay with a 45.
I have considered the 45ACP and the 10mm but they don't seem to offer anyhting I don't have in a 357 Sig and a 40S&W. I will probably get the 45 ACP in the form of a Glock 30 which I have fired and like quite a bit. It is much better for concealing than a 1911. I think the 1911 was very good a few decades ago but many other designs are better now.
If I wake up rich someday, I'll get a 1911 in 45ACP just to celebrate its historical significance. But today for self defense I think the 40 S&W is sufficient.
If I wake up rich someday, I'll get a 1911 in 45ACP just to celebrate its historical significance. But today for self defense I think the 40 S&W is sufficient.
farm23
Member
I have always owned 45s in 1911 but have shot the 10. They are both very good but I have a lot of 45 all 230gr so I will stick with what I have. If I was to start over I would consider the 10 but ammo for the 45 is easier to get and I also have 45 revolvers.
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