10mm - The most versatile auto pistol cartridge in existence?

[R.W.Dale]

This is what irks me most about some 10mmauto owners.

They have no idea what they are talking about.

The 10mm is no more powerful than full power 357's

Agreed. And yet that doesn't stop them from quoting some un tested un proven God knows how high a pressure overloads to compare to nice normal PRESSURE TESTED loads right out of a manual.

10mm is very versatile in that its oddball enough to have a panache about it and has just enough performance to send to send the newbie handloader on a never ending orgasm of brass bulging overloading in that eternal quest for 25fps more. Don't believe me see the double tap thread and note the only thing important to 10mm guys is how fast the load is with no care for what projectile is going downrange.

 

[GambJoe]

I never wanted a Glock until now.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

10mm Baer, eaa witness (bottom) G20 (top)

Of all of the guns I sold, my glock 20 is the one I wonder about the most. I could never get over the plastic frame flex of the plastic frame during recoil. I put a great barrel in it, it was accurate, reliable, easy to shoot well but I could never master the frame flex problem.

Often like this I think I should go buy it back from my shooting buddy.

 

[Hikester]

Nice collection, Peter! Nice shooting, too.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

If that does not get your heart pitter pattering for a 10mm I don't know what will.

A custom Les Baer 10mm HeavyWeight Monolith with his 1.5" 50 yard accuracy option and full tactical rounding. It is guns like this that the 10mm was made for in terms of versatility.

 

[MachIVshooter]

It's nice to be able to shoot readily available .40S&W ammo in same firearm w/o alterations.

I see that as being of little benefit in a nation where we can own as many guns as we want. If I want to shoot .40, I'll take my 4006. If I want to shoot 10mm, I'll take one of the five I own. If I want to shoot both on the same day, I am perfectly capable of toting 2 handguns

What popular caliber ammo was always in stock during shortages about four years ago?

On my shelves? All of them. I keep enough on hand that I'm not subject to whimsical shortages and price-gouging. I can't even remember the last time I had less than 10,000 centerfire rounds on hand, and it's usually double that or more.

 

[gym]

The only reason the ten isn't as popular is the cost of the ammo. And other than Glocks, the guns like Deltas have skyrocketed. If a company made one at a decent price and ammo at full power it would be more popular. I know Smith and some other whitness type guns are out there, but nothing really cool, unless you get into the $2000.00 dolar and above range.
Then no one stocks ammo, so you have to order it, or reload, with all the choices out there other than true 10mm fans, new shooters will never see one.Same with the 41 mag. They are getting impossible to find ammo for. That is a real stopper.Some countries like Mexico use 38 supers much more than we do. 25 years ago just about every Mexican cop had a 38 super. Things change.

 

[SatCong]

Your correct.I love L B's and 10mm no less. A custom Les Baer 10mm HeavyWeight Monolith with his 1.5" 50 yard accuracy option and full tactical rounding. It is guns like this that the 10mm was made for in terms of versatility.

 

[MachIVshooter]

If a company made one at a decent price and ammo at full power it would be more popular.

Well, there are, of course, all the Witness models. But also the Sarsilmaz K2 17+1 round 10mm. There have been others, like the Star Megastar.

There are a number of companies offering full power 10mm ammo.

I know Smith and some other whitness type guns are out there, but nothing really cool

Seriously?

And that's not even all of them......

 

[.338Sako]

In a word, it penetrates. Far more than .45 ACP does, at least in the full-house loads. Check out these ballistic gelatin results, showing that the best 10mm rounds tested (DoubleTap 200gr) penetrated 19.5 inches, compared with 15.25" for .45ACP. And DoubleTap 200gr isn't even close to being the most powerful 10mm cartridge available. A Buffalo Bore 220gr @1200fps would likely penetrate quite a bit farther.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336612

If I was carrying in the woods for protection against large animals (say, anything smaller than a grizzly bear), I'd much rather have a 10mm on my hip than a .45ACP.

For defense against 2-legged threats, where overpenetration might be a concern, there are plenty of hollow points in lesser loadings that would get the job done very nicely, but still provide good penetration through clothing or light barriers.

^^^ what he said. I love my g20 and my 1911's. Carrying in the woods I'll take my 10mm w/200 gr doubletaps in hard cast.

 

[intercooler]

R.W. Dale,

No that isn't all we care about is FPS but we at least strive for it to be in the 10mm range or might as well just have a .40.


I see threads like this with so much lack of knowledge. Maybe they are people that haven't owned one or done the research. Plenty of offerings and plenty of ammo out there. Maybe not in your local Wally World but most of the good shops have it.

Mach,

I so want the Limited Custom Canadian version! It is the black with Stainless slide.

 

[intercooler]

Here it is but can't get it in the U.S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVW-FQAEZw8

http://www.tanfoglio.it/eng/catalogo/sport-amp-competition/limited-custom.html

 

[MachIVshooter]

I so want the Limited Custom Canadian version! It is the black with Stainless slide.

Good looking pistol, but it's ported

Yeah, the porting helps in competetive shooting. But that is one place the 10mm is not a good choice when speed is emphasized; Smaller, lighter-recoiling cartridges will make major PF. The whole point of 10mm is magnum handgun performance in a conventional autoloader. Port the barrel half way back like that, and you kiss your velocity goodbye.

 

[greenlion]

And other than Glocks, the guns like Deltas have skyrocketed. If a company made one at a decent price and ammo at full power it would be more popular. I know Smith and some other whitness type guns are out there, but nothing really cool, unless you get into the $2000.00 dolar and above range.

This was sort of my point much earlier on. GLOCK makes 10mm guns, and I think Kimber makes/made one. Other than that, they are limited-production special order items from custom shops.

Look, in current production 9mm guns, I can get a 6" longslide auto, a 5" racegun, a duty sized pistol, a compact duty pistol, a subcompact, a mini-pocket sized gun, a derringer, a revolver, a carbine rifle, a submachine gun, etc.

If I go with 10mm I can get the GLOCK 20 or the GLOCK 29. I know the actual CARTRIDGE may be more versatile, but overall the 10mm is VERY limited. I wish it were more common, but then again, I also wish I could get revolvers in 10mm-rimmed, and carbines in 10mm, etc.

 

[el Godfather]

Versatile ok but most versatile....I don't think so.

Yes, it is powerful, and in case of autoloaders the most powerful while keeping the pistol size reasonable.

 

[psyshack]

357 Terms, SatCong and R.W. Dale

Really? Best get your chrony's out,,, start loading up ammo and study up.

There is no way I can get a .357 158gn XTP to the number's I can get out of a 155gn XTP in 10mm in the 4" to 6" barrel range. Nor the energy. I can do compressed H-110 loads and other powders with mag primers and always come up short by a noticeable margin. Same holds true for other bullet weights in my experience. The .357 always comes up short over all. My G20 does not wreck brass with it's LW barrel. It does not blow primers out or otherwise present a danger to myself or others.

As for the .41 mag. The only ,,, and I mean only way you can get close to .41 mag numbers is using small primer 10mm brass which is very hard to impossible to find.

Now if your comparing .357 to 10mm concerning retail ammo. Well yeah! Seeing most 10mm common retail ammo is worthless Smith .40 junk loading in longer brass. The .357 retail is much stouter.

I shoot and reload both the .357 and 10mm. And enjoy the heck out of both! But in the end. My loaded up G20 lays waist to my well loaded up 686P. Bottom line, the G20 can only dream about getting into the gated community called .41 mag.

 

[R.W.Dale]

As is my point previously and so beautifully illustrated in the above post for 10mm guys FPS is the only goal.

What is a 155 .40 caliber bullet good for? Because a 158g .357" bullet of suitable construction is adequate for black bears on down with its superior SD.

I can load 125grain 357 loads that just like your 10 loads will put down some impressive numbers due to sheer velocity. But they wont be useful on anything besides paper with such an overdriven bullet. Just like hot 155g 10mm loads.

Compare 158g 357 to 180g ten so you have bullets of similar SD and construction and the 10 loses out. Or better yet 180g 357 to 200g ten.

And of course again AT WHAT PRESSURE? A question 10mm fanbois really strive hard to not dwell on.

And for the record I've owned and handloaded a ten millimeter or two in my days. 10mm is no 357 magnum and for dang sure hides in the shadow of 41

 

[psyshack]

What I shot early today after the storms passed. Yeah it's a 4" Smith and the Glock has a 5.15" barrel in it. There both hot loads and are accurate. And the only way that .357 load will start coming up on that 10mm load is with a 8"+ barrel.

But it does shoot good double action.



Edit: 10mm is a Blue Dot load.

 

[SatCong]

R.W.Dale
As is my point previously and so beautifully illustrated in the above post for 10mm guys FPS is the only goal.

What is a 155 .40 caliber bullet good for? Because a 158g .357" bullet of suitable construction is adequate for black bears on down with its superior SD.

I can load 125grain 357 loads that just like your 10 loads will put down some impressive numbers due to sheer velocity. But they wont be useful on anything besides paper with such an overdriven bullet. Just like hot 155g 10mm loads.

Compare 158g 357 to 180g ten so you have bullets of similar SD and construction and the 10 loses out. Or better yet 180g 357 to 200g ten.

And of course again AT WHAT PRESSURE? A question 10mm fanbois really strive hard to not dwell on.

And for the record I've owned and handloaded a ten millimeter or two in my days. 10mm is no 357 magnum and for dang sure hides in the shadow of 41

I'am sorry, I have loaded the 10mm from about 1990 or 91 to now. For my pick for black bears it would be 200 grain good hard case bullet , moving over 1,200 FPS and it's .043 bigger bore.I would never say the 10mm is good as the 41 mag.But this is for sure, the 357 isn't up to the 10mm. By the way, been loading and shooting 357 from 60's to now.Sorry if this up-sets you.

 

[MachIVshooter]

This was sort of my point much earlier on. GLOCK makes 10mm guns, and I think Kimber makes/made one. Other than that, they are limited-production special order items from custom shops.

Look, in current production 9mm guns, I can get a 6" longslide auto, a 5" racegun, a duty sized pistol, a compact duty pistol, a subcompact, a mini-pocket sized gun, a derringer, a revolver, a carbine rifle, a submachine gun, etc.

If I go with 10mm I can get the GLOCK 20 or the GLOCK 29. I know the actual CARTRIDGE may be more versatile, but overall the 10mm is VERY limited. I wish it were more common, but then again, I also wish I could get revolvers in 10mm-rimmed, and carbines in 10mm, etc.

:banghead:

There are over 20 current production 10mm pistols, from compact polymer guns to 6" hunting pistols to competition guns and even the S&W 610 revolver. Prices range from $300 to as much as you want to spend on a custom.

And don't forget the Mechtec and Oly-arms K-10 in the carbine department.

10mm is no 357 magnum

Yeah, you're right. They don't have virtually the same case capacities and operating pressures or anything. Oh, wait..........yes they do

10mm: 24.0 grs. H2O, 37,500 PSI
.357 Magnum: 27.0 grs. H2O, 35,000 PSI

Anyone who's played with both knows darn well they're ballistic twins. Out of pressure barrels, max loads for either mirror each other. When comparing a 5" barreled auto to a 4" revolver (making for a 5.7" chamber & barrel), the 10mm will come out on top, because there is no cylinder gap. That's where the advantage lies. To make .357 mag loads hit the 770 ft/lbs my 10mm loads will in a G-20, I have to go to my behemoth 6" 686.

S&W 586 4", 158 gr. JHP, 13.0 grs. blue dot: 1,440 FPS & 727 ft/lbs
S&W 686 6", 158 gr. JHP, 13.0 grs. blue dot: 1,495 FPS & 783 ft/lbs
Glock 20 4.6", 180 gr. Golden Sabre, 10.8 grs. IMR-800x: 1,390 FPS & 772 ft/lbs
Witness Limited 5.25", 180 gr. Golden Sabre, 10.8 grs. IMR-800x: 1,430 FPS & 817 ft/lbs

Both the .357 Mag and 10mm loads listed here are slightly (0.5 gr.) over max published data.

Furthermore, while ballistic twins they may be, the advantage of the 10mm offering that power in a lighter weight, more compact handgun holding 2-1/2 times as many round is rather obvious.

I love my .357's, but I'm not diluded about what they are or aren't, and if it's my bottom on the line, I'll grab a 10mm every time.

 

[357 Terms]

Really? Best get your chrony's out,,, start loading up ammo and study up.

OK psyshack!!

Give me some chrony data! I have mine!!!!


The 155grn bullet will NOT! hold up to the same velocity the 158grn 357 will...simple as that!

Sorry man, it is just a fact.

When you factor in the sectional density of the 357 and the ability and versatility of the MANY different bullet configurations , the 10mm doesn't even come close to how versatile the 357 is.....FACT!!

Study up kid.

 

[357 Terms]

Design velocity window comparisons from Hornady data regarding their XTPs;

10mm 155gr - 850fps to 1300fps _ sectional density .138
.357mag 158gr HP - 700fps to 1400fps
.357mag 158gr FP - 1150fps to 1800fps _ sectional density .177

10mm 180gr - 750fps to 1450fps _ sectional density .161
.357mag 180gr - 900 to 1700fps _ sectional density .202

10mm 200gr - 700fps to 1200fps _ sectional density .179

That data was from an old thread.

Notice the 155,8grn velocity, my 357 XTP handloads will hit 1550fps from my Blackhawk.

The 10mm will break apart well before the 357 will, even at carbine velocities.

That! and the sectional density is MUCH better, as a hunting round the 357 is hands down better!

It is not just velocity son, it is bullet construction, sectional density, the platform from which the bullet is delivered.

The 357 is sooo much more versatile that any comparison or argument is silly.

 

[MachIVshooter]

When you factor in the sectional density of the 357 and the ability and versatility of the MANY different bullet configurations , the 10mm doesn't even come close to how versatile the 357 is.....FACT!!

.400" bullets range from 135 grains to 230 grains. (95 gr. range)

.357" bullets range from 110 grains to 200 grains. (90 gr. range)

Sectional densities remain fairly close when the ratio of bore size to bullet weight is similar (duh!). 230 gr. 10mm is .205, 200 gr. .357 is .224. Obviously you can skew the numbers drastically in your favor as a .357 fanboy by comparing equal bullet weights in different diameters.

 

[357 Terms]

Obviously you can skew the numbers drastically in your favor as a .357 fanboy by comparing equal bullet weights in different diameters.

LOL!

Pot calling the kettle black mach 1V

So are you saying that the 10mm is a better all around/versatile round than the 357?

 

[357 Terms]

...because if you are, remember, its not just the caliber-

Its also the platform it can be delivered by, the 357 is hands down, no doubt about it WAAAY ahead of the "niche" 10mm.