10mm vs 45 ACP +P for bear defense according to the owner of Buffalo Bore

[someguy2800]

A week or two ago Tim Sundles, the owner of Buffalo Bore ammunition made a video about handguns for defense against dangerous game, and toward the end of the video he made a comment something to the affect that many people choose 10mm over 45 ACP as their bear defense pistol and they are making a mistake. He didn't explain any further but the comments were filled with people asking him to make a video on that topic to explain further. Yesterday he did make a video to explain.

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[BreechFace]

What a way to get another "bear thread" on deck.

I would like him to explain that, I'll have to watch the video later. As penetration is a large part of the equation on dangerous game defense. If I'm choosing between the two hardcast offerings from Buffalo Bore I'm choosing the 220gr 10mm at 1,200fps. The 10mm also has the SD advantage over 45ACP. I would think the 10mm at the grain weight and velocity would out penetrate the heavier (by 35gr) 45ACP at 925fps.

 

[bluejeans]

Watched it. Synopsis: yes 10mm penetrates deeper but it’s wasted penetration, the 45+p already adequately reaches all vitals needed to bring down big game while being heavier and making a bigger hole. Since both reach the vitals, the bigger .45 entry hole is worth more than a bit of over penetration.

Interesting but I’ve never felt the need to argue between the 10 and 45 so.. *shrug. I have both and would use either but only if I lost both of my 44 mags.

 

[CraigC]

Tim's point is that the larger diameter of the .45 plays a bigger role than the slightly higher SD of the 10mm. I'd have to agree and would also say that the .45's recoil impulse is more controllable.

I agree wholeheartedly with what he said about YouTubers testing on wood or water jugs. You only learn how those loads penetrate in wood and water jugs. Has no relevance to living critters.

 

[BreechFace]

Watched it. Synopsis: yes 10mm penetrates deeper but it’s wasted penetration, the 45+p already adequately reaches all vitals needed to bring down big game while being heavier and making a bigger hole. Since both reach the vitals, the bigger .45 entry hole is worth more than a bit of over penetration.

Interesting but I’ve never felt the need to argue between the 10 and 45 so.. *shrug. I have both and would use either but only if I lost both of my 44 mags.

If that's the synopsis, I'll take penetration, in defensive situations I'm not guaranteed good shots. And I don't want to wait for a big bruin to bleed out from a 0.05" bigger entry hole, he might have me half-digested by that time.

I would have to think the difference in penetration of the two Buffalo Bore loadings I posted above (which represent the best hardcast offerings for each) would be more significant that "slight" penetration advantage, but maybe I'm all wet.

But big respect for Tim, he's been there done that.

 

[BreechFace]

I do agree that gel blocks, water jugs, phone books, refridgerators, and auto glass only contribute as much as the medium they are to what a projectile/cartridge can do.

There are some out there who try and simulate more appropriate mediums using denim, bones, ribs, gel blocks in combination (Paul Harrel, RIP), but few of them get sizeable enough femurs/shoulders, and thick enough hide/fat, vascular tissue to simulate what a shot on a bear looks like.

What calibrated gel blocks do provide is a head to head comparison taking out variables. This gets forgotten about those who tear down people using gel blocks. As someone in the field of science, we must have equality between tests that eliminates variables to have good data. Gel block testing is strictly what a given projectile/cartridge does in that medium, nothing more. So a gel block test between the two offerings from Buffalo Bore above has very valid contributions to what those cartridges performance on penetration is.

Does it tell how well they will perform on bears or other mediums, no. But it does equally compare penetration and expansion qualities within a KNOWN and UNDERSTOOD medium, where external variables are mitigated.

Give me a calibrated gel block test between the two Buffalo Bore cartridges above, with equal barrel length and distance from target; and then I'll give my opinion on whether or not the penetration advantage is too minimal to care about.

 

[Old_Grouch]

If that's the synopsis, I'll take penetration,

This^^^^^.
Bears are just a wee bit thicker than two legged vermin. Penetration is the big concern here. A .45 has more resistance and less momentum (velocity x mass) than a full house 10mm. Assuming similar bullet profiles, a .45 just isn't going to penetrate as well as a 10mm.
I don't have a dog in the hunt as I no longer own a .45 ACP or a 10mm, but if I had occasion to go into bear country and those were my choices I'd opt for the 10mm. Around here the only real threat from quadrupeds is mountain lion and, in some places, dogs. Any of my .357s are sufficient for those.

 

[.38 Special]

Angels on the head of a pin. If I'm genuinely worried about dangerous animals, I want my handgun cartridge to start with a "5" - and I'd really rather have a rifle!

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I can see his point and value his input as he has done a lot of hunting and makes ammo for a living.

That said, it makes me feel better about carrying a 45LC as that is close to the ACP he is talking about, but I can go stronger still with the LC if need be.

 

[MikeInOr]

Watched it. Synopsis: yes 10mm penetrates deeper but it’s wasted penetration, the 45+p already adequately reaches all vitals needed to bring down big game while being heavier and making a bigger hole. Since both reach the vitals, the bigger .45 entry hole is worth more than a bit of over penetration.

Interesting but I’ve never felt the need to argue between the 10 and 45 so.. *shrug. I have both and would use either but only if I lost both of my 44 mags.

Yeah, good synopsis... but it took him 15 minutes of droning on just to say that. I have no need to waste my time watching video of some wanker walk through his house. I think the guy just likes to hear himself talk. I give the video a thumbs down. Don't waste your time.

I have no question that he chose 45acp over 10mm just to drive up his youtube clicks.

 

[BreechFace]

Yeah, good synopsis... but it took him 15 minutes of droning on just to say that. I have no need to waste my time watching video of some wanker walk through his house. I think the guy just likes to hear himself talk. I give the video a thumbs down. Don't waste your time.

I have no question that he chose 45acp over 10mm just to drive up his youtube clicks.

Yeah when he started the interview outside, then proceeded to walk through his house the opinion crossed my mind this video is about him and not about the subject at hand. Didn't even get through the first 5 minutes and said I'll just trust @bluejeans synopsis.

 

[someguy2800]

I'll go with the guy that shoots bears with handguns as a hobby.

 

[Tinman357]

I have several 45acp's, 1911, G41, and a Kahr TP45 covert, and only one 10mm, a Glock 40 with rmr.

When I go up in the mountains I carry the G40, when I go in my backyard I have my .45acp on me. I have seen several black bears in my yard.

Both are loaded with the Buffalo Bore or the Underwood equivalent. I'm confident that either will get the job done.

 

[Bronco72]

Yeppers ! I would want a 44 mag or up, preferably a 45-70 rifle

 

[ms6852]

In the end, we all will carry what makes us feel safe, whether it is 10mm, 45 acp , .357 magnum, 44 magnum and up.

 

[caleb90]

45acp sucks. Same with the 1911

 

[Shawn Dodson]

What calibrated gel blocks do provide is a head to head comparison taking out variables. This gets forgotten about those who tear down people using gel blocks. As someone in the field of science, we must have equality between tests that eliminates variables to have good data. Gel block testing is strictly what a given projectile/cartridge does in that medium, nothing more.

"The Wound Profile: A Visual Method for Quantifying Gunshot Wound Components." Martin L. Fackler, M.D., and John A. Malinowski, B.S., JTrauma, 25(6): 522-529, 1985.

This is the original source document by Fackler that provides all the evidence and discussion regarding testing bullets in properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin. This is the paper in which he presented his purpose and methodology to the scientific and medical communities.

It is the Rosetta Stone of deciphering the disruption produced in ordnance gelatin and what the disruption represents.

Very few people have ever read it, which allows misconceptions to flourish.

Fackler developed the method for preparing Type 250A ordnance gelatin as a realistic soft tissue simulant that produces a remarkably accurate representation of a bullet's wound profile in living soft tissues.

It was developed to aid medical personnel who treat gunshot wounds.

Some excerpts:

"A wound profile method is reported for predicting the wounding potential of ordnance in living animal tissue by shooting projectiles into 10% gelatin blocks kept at a temperature of 4-degrees C. Blocks (25 x 25 x 50 cm) were placed end to end so that the entire missile-gelatin interaction was captured. The penetration and fragmentation pattern in these blocks previously was found comparable to wounds in living swine leg muscle. The extent of the radial cracks in the gelatin approximated the temporary cavity in swine muscle. Measurements from longitudinal sections of the blocks indicated the depth of penetration and the sizes of both the permanent and temporary cavities, and fragmentation patterns were mapped with biplanar X-rays of the blocks. The four wound components, penetration, fragmentation, permanent cavitation, and temporary cavitation, were diagrammed in what was termed a 'wound profile.' This profile should help characterize wounds caused by different missiles."

"The unique advantages of the wound profile technique described include: first, it allows accurate prediction of the characteristics of the wound produced in living animal tissue by a given projectile without the need for shooting animals to make the determination. A knowledge of human anatomy and the characteristics of various body tissues when added to the information presented on the wound profile should give the surgeon a valuable tool for both triage and treatment. Second, the wounding projectile is easily recovered. If one is to study adequately the entire tissue-missile interaction, examination of the fired projectile cannot be omitted. Third, the pictorial presentation of the wound profile, with clear separation of the wound components, should correct misconceptions, help make the basics of wound ballistics more understandable, and facilitate training of surgeons likely to encounter gunshot wounds."

"The clinical relevance of the wound profile falls in the realm of aiding the prediction of wound severity which helps the operating surgeon in marshalling his resources for the operation and helps the triage officer in the mass casualty situation."

"Many surgeons experienced in the treatment of gunshot wounds have visited our laboratory and on viewing the wound profiles of the full metal cased rifle bullet type (Fig. 8 [7.62 NATO) is a typical example) frequently remark that this visual presentation clarifies clinical findings that have puzzled them; damage in extremities caused by rifle bullets (whose velocity is commonly thought to be associated with extensive tissue disruption) that is no greater than the damage caused by the lowest velocity pistol bullet. The wound profiles, by showing the disruptive effects of other variables such as missile fragmentation and missile shape (including yaw), make it clear that velocity increases only the potential for increased tissue disruption and other factors determine the realization of that potential."

In the 40 years since, Fackler's 10% ordnance gelatin has been further proved by other researchers to be an accurate and realistic soft tissue simulant that represents "typical soft tissues" as opposed to just living swine muscle. It's more than just a "consistent medium".

 

[fastbolt]

Well, considering the proven history of 250-255gr LSWC only pushed to 900-1000fps in a .45 Colt, and it having been acknowledged to yield acceptable results in shooting large animals, I'd not gainsay the potential value of a 255gr .45ACP at similar velocities.

Now, if I wanted to duplicate the results of 10mm/220gr loads, I could always go back to using .41MAG, but it's still an arguable ladder rung or two below a stout .44MAG. That leaves the 10mm faithful to argue that magazine capacity and the controllability of a semiauto are better than a revolver chambered in a larger, 'more powerful' caliber. No biggie. Suit yourself. It's your carcass on the line.

If I again decide to wander the backwoods where bear roam, I'll return to packing one of my .44's, or perhaps even my Blackhawk .45 Convertible, but with some of the remaining 255gr/1000fps .45 Colt handloads I have left over from the 90's. Different strokes.

 

[Buzznrose]

I’ve been watching Tim Sundles’ videos a lot lately (just found them) and WOW are they excellent. I really like the information, straight forward delivery, and real life no nonsense content.

His “vault” video is very cool! Actually all his videos are definitely worth the watch.

So I will absolutely give him the credit of being a serious “been there, done that, got the pics and mount to prove it!” hunter and bullet maker. But the actual documentation from events does suggest that lesser rounds (9MM, .40, .38) are absolutely better than nothing and have been very effective.

The man is clearly an authority on firearms, ammo, and dangerous/trophy animal hunting. And there is a LOT one can learn from his excellent videos and tech articles on the BB website.

 

[Gordon]

I carry a custom Sig Xten 10mm with 15 round mags of 220 grain hard cast at 1200 FPS in a Gunfighters chast rig in bear territory when carrying a back pack or rifle . I have seen the 10mm penetration in large Europen hogs and a couple of 300 pound Black bear and it is really good. Now I carried a 1911 with good stout loads for 50 years and they don't match that 10mm penetration by a long shot. I don't know about cavity destruction. I also have an extensive history of hunting with the .44 Magnum and would say it is a big notch above either cartridge, although maybe not in penetration. I have shot a couple of large hogs with .45acp ball from close in and it did work ok , but NOT like a .44 mag.. I used to carry a S&W Model 29 4" in a Original Jackass shoulder rig or a belt holster for 35 years until about 8 years ago when in Oregon went to a Glock 20 in 10mm and then a few years back gave the Glock 20 to a son when I got my GrayGuns Custom Sig xten. Time marches on ...

 

[doubleh]

I suppose this bear thread involves black bears. Never having shot one with either caliber I have no opinion on which is better but if ever I had need I would happily use either one. I have only stood beside a stuffed grizzly in a tourist trap store that we stop at now and then to look at junk made in Mexico. I wouldn't have wanted to make him mad with either caliber.

 

[Old_Grouch]

Angles on the head of a pin. If I'm genuinely worried about dangerous animals, I want my handgun cartridge to start with a "5" - and I'd really rather have a rifle!

As would I. As I said above. given the choice between .45 ACP and 10mm, I'd choose the 10.

 

[dh1633pm]

I read the comments. I was thinking the bear thing was like the beating of the dead horse. . Lots of posts by those who would unlikely encounter a bear or a dead horse. We can give our opinion on what we might use. Few might have experience to give value to the post. I could be ignorance (more likely than not) Since I have never seen a bear in the wild. Closest was my son’s lab chased one from his back yard. 45 or 10 mm for bear, your guess as good as mine.

 

[Anchorite]

I’ll take the 45. You can push a 250 grain flat point +P at 950 FPS with no issue with the correct ammo. I carry poly coated 250 +Ps regularly. This load will kill literally anything in North American and as a bonus has an easier, smoother (less sharp) recoil impulse than any 10mm.

I‘ve never seen a 10mm that would reliably run the 220s. It seems that the 10mm reliability tops out at 200 and runs like a top with the 180s. That’s food for thought.

Based on my observations, I believe the 45s to just be a more reliable platform (ie, G21, HK USP, 1911, XD).

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Lots of posts by those who would unlikely encounter a bear ... We can give our opinion on what we might use. Few might have experience to give value to the post. I could be ignorance (more likely than not) Since I have never seen a bear in the wild. Closest was my son’s lab chased one from his back yard. 45 or 10 mm for bear, your guess as good as mine.

I live in Washington state. While mountain biking near my home during a fall Sunday morning a couple of years ago I suddenly found myself between a sow black bear and her cub at the edge of a clearcut. She charged in my direction and I drew my G19, which was loaded with 147gr HST. Thankfully she stopped behind a blackberry thicket and her cub ran off into the woods. After many seconds she darted across the trail I'd just ridden down, following her cub. I holstered up and immediately went home and had a beer.

I now load my G19 with Underwood 115gr Xtreme Penetrator when I venture into the forest. My primary concern was dogs, coyotes, cougars, and bobcats. A bear encounter never crossed my mind.

It was a learning moment for me. I realized that a threat can appear at any moment, even when I least expect it, and what I have on my person and what skills I have are all I'll have to defend myself. I don't get time to prepare when things suddenly go sideways.