Hugger-4641
Member
Guilty as charged. I can barely do 5 sec with my .357 and get all hits. Doubt that I could do it with a .454 without LOTS of practice. That's why I'll take my G20.
10mm vs 45 ACP +P for bear defense according to the owner of Buffalo Bore
- Thread starter someguy2800
- Start date
WisBorn
Contributing Member
I don't think that I could practice enough to shoot a 454 and get 5 hits in 3 seconds. But my hands are junk!
Armored farmer
Member
There are SO many moving parts to this debate.
One very important part is to be able to quickly put a shot on target under extreme stress.
If you compete, practice, qualify, ....plink...? ..with a Glock....
.....a wise choice for you would likely be a G20 10mm.
......and so forth.
One very important part is to be able to quickly put a shot on target under extreme stress.
If you compete, practice, qualify, ....plink...? ..with a Glock....
.....a wise choice for you would likely be a G20 10mm.
......and so forth.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Nonsense. That's one way to look at it. I don't think it's very wise and it has nothing to do with defending my position but defending the truth. It has to do with what I've learned from actually shooting stuff with handguns, not reading vague studies about it. For centuries, people defended themselves against bears with spears. Gonna do that? We can read studies about deer shot with the .22LR, doesn't make it a good idea. Why? Because we have to actually study what bullets do to flesh. We can read studies about people putting out house fires with a wash rag, doesn't make that a good idea either. No, what is at least as important 'that' it worked is 'how' it worked. It's how we evolve and further tip the scales in our favor. By actually analyzing how things work and what we can do to improve them. It's how we got to bullets from round balls. It's how we got to hardcast flat nosed solids from jacketed hollowpoints. If we used your logic for everything, the .45-70 would be deemed a piss poor bear cartridge because of the USFS "study" in the `80's. Being in search of the truth, we can analyze that the reason for their poor rating was that they chose a piss-poor bullet. I'm weird, I choose based on terminal ballistics, not stories and studies.
Again, none of this does anything but further cement my position that people look for justification for choices they already made. Maybe that's what I'm doing but at least I did the legwork. Speaking of which, having shot multiple large critters with handguns using what I believe are the best bullets available, seen that even then they do not exit on a shoulder shot, why would I choose something less for defending m life against an enraged bear? If I'm going to arbitrarily dismiss what I learned from actual experience, what's the point in gaining that experience in the first place? Why doesn't Tim Sundles forget what he's learned and just carry a 10mm instead of a .500?
All this is exactly what I mean when I talk about the disconnect between the handgun hunting community which relies on experience and fact and the self defense community which relies on studies and stories.
Did anybody bother to watch Tim's video on the .375 not being a stopping rifle cartridge? How can you watch this and double down on this nonsensical crap that a lesser cartridge is a better choice for defense than for hunting? Sorry but it's bass-ackwards logic.
Captains1911
Member
I'm sure those are nowhere even close to full house defensive loads that would be suitable for bear defense.Not a 454, but a 44mag! 6 shots 1 second. I like watching Jerry he is a machine.
S&W 629 .44 Magnum 6 shots in 1 SECOND with Jerry Miculek!
www.Miculek.comOfficial Miculek T-shirts: http://miculek.com/t-shirts-and-clothing/Official products and gun accessories: http://miculek.com/catalogue/Jerry ...youtu.be
TomJ
Member
This may, at least in part be where a disconnect comes in. As I stated before due to previous hand and wrist injuries a 10MM is as much recoil as my right hand and wrist can take. I had bought and tried a Ruger 454 Casull but it was too painful to shoot more than 4 or 5 rounds at a time and I wasn't accurate with it. Being limited to shooting that few rounds means not enough practice to increase accuracy, and not being able to hit an animal which is charging me just because I went with a larger caliber hardly seems like a good idea. Do I wish I could shoot and carry something larger than a 10MM when in grizzly territory, which I almost never am? Of course. However, if my options are hits with a 10MM or misses with a larger caliber, I'm of course better off with a 10MM. There are many people who for one reason or another can't accurately shoot large caliber hand guns, maybe because of age, small stature, etc. Their option is to then use the largest caliber they can quickly and accurately shoot.
WisBorn
Contributing Member
The revolver advantage. I frequently carry a revolver when bouncing around town or out on a walk. There is one big advantage of carrying a wheel gun. Feed it anything. They normally go bang.
After watching it rain and then snow yesterday. The sun came out today so I went to the range. Yes it was sloppy, wet, and muddy. But I was do for some trigger therapy.
Back to my point. While at the range I looked down in the snow and and saw an unfired cartridge.
Sorry about the picture quality. I found 2 failure to fire 500 S&W hardcast rounds.
Any ammo can have this happen. The revolver advantage. It didn't go bang? Pull the trigger again? There was fired 500 brass on the ground. So it did work most of the time.
After watching it rain and then snow yesterday. The sun came out today so I went to the range. Yes it was sloppy, wet, and muddy. But I was do for some trigger therapy.
Back to my point. While at the range I looked down in the snow and and saw an unfired cartridge.
Sorry about the picture quality. I found 2 failure to fire 500 S&W hardcast rounds.
Any ammo can have this happen. The revolver advantage. It didn't go bang? Pull the trigger again? There was fired 500 brass on the ground. So it did work most of the time.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Most of these guys aren't even revolver shooters.
That's fine, it's a conscious decision you're making to compromise based on a physical limitation. Most people aren't doing that. They're taking the easy route but trying to convince themselves that their choice isn't sub-optimal.
BreechFace
Member
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2020
- Messages
- 4,527
I hope the last guy in the video is faster drawing that revolver than he is putting it away. All of these were from a ready position, SA hammer cocked, would be nice to see draw, cock hammer, present and fire.
That video explains exactly why I choose a 10mm Glock. Controlled environment, static target, revolver jumping all over the place, no thanks; not in a stressful adrenaline filled situation.
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
That's exactly why you're gonna have to shoot it 15 times to kill it. Like everything else, people seem to hedge all their bets on magazine capacity.
BreechFace
Member
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2020
- Messages
- 4,527
Good thing my Glock 20 holds 15+1 then.
I carry what is in my comfort zone when in the wilderness. In bear counrty that can be from a 10mm to .44 mag. If a bear gets past one of those and kills my you won't hear me whining about the lack of stopping power. If I am only mauled I reserve the right. 5o whine if I choose.
Armored farmer
Member
I get that. I totally agree. Out in the boonies by myself, I might carry something based on how easy it is.
C'est la vie.
But what if your wife and kids are tagging along? (as was my situation).
Gordon
Member
My Sig X ten with special (and reliable) magazines holds 19 10mm !
Good choice then. Your original claim was about dilettantes, someone who talks a good game but generally has no depth of knowledge or experience.
What I see in the video is one guy making the challenge. He starts with the hammer cocked and the gun aimed. We don't know what loading he's using, but if those are full-house loadings, he's got some very impressive hand strength/skill. I don't think you're going to convince anyone he's a dilettante if those are full-house loadings. And if they're not, the caliber doesn't really matter, does it.
No one else I saw in the video came anywhere near the challenge requirements stated in the video of 3 seconds with accuracy.
Shooter 1. 5 hits (one was high, but let's count it anyway) in 4.8 seconds. 1 hit per second.
Shooter 2. 4 hits, 3.9 seconds. Faster, but at the cost of a miss. Still 1 hit per second.
Shooter 3. 0 hits, 3.8 seconds.
Shooter 4. 0 hits, 3.1 seconds.
Shooter 5. 2 hits, 2.96 seconds. (One of the hits was the initial shot, taken with the sights already aligned on target before time started.)
All shooters started with the gun aimed and the hammer cocked.
I'm sorry, but unless you literally meant that it was possible to empty the gun in 3 seconds with no concern at all for actually making hits then I don't think this video substantiates your claim. And if that is what you really meant, I'm not sure what the value of such a "skill" would be. I mean, people could just carry noisemakers if hits are not an issue.
I will stand by the statement that if someone really can draw and empty a .454 Casull using full-house loads in 3 seconds with good hits, that it is a good choice for them for self-defense against bears. I'm sure there are at least a few folks out there who can do that and they know who they are.
That's THE way to look at it. Successful self-defense is when the defender survives. There's no other way to look at it.
When a person used a spear against a bear attack and survived that it was certainly a successful self-defense. The fact that using a spear against a bear is more dangerous than using modern firearms doesn't change the definition of "successful".
No one is suggesting anything like that on this thread except you. This is a red herring/distraction that doesn't address the fact that "successful self-defense" has a clear meaning that is different from the one you are trying to propose.
When a person does use a washrag to put out a house fire, that's a success story. The fact that using a washrag against a house fire isn't a great idea doesn't change the definition of "successful".
Again, distraction from the point at hand.
1. The success stories are not isolated instances. There are a number of them, demonstrating that we aren't talking about flukes.
2. This is not about using the best possible technology against bear attacks, it's about compromise. It's about preparing against an unlikely event. People aren't going to be be using the best possible approach--they won't be bringing along backup carrying big bore stopping rifles on their hikes just in case they get attacked by a bear. They are going to be carrying handguns--a compromise from the best possible approach. You're trying to make it seem like the disagreement here is about carrying a compromise vs. taking the best possible approach, but that's obviously not true. It's about which compromise to choose.
I don't think anyone is saying that the best firearm to stop a bear attack is a handgun in any caliber. Again, nobody is talking about the best solution, it's all about which sub-optimal solution to choose.
First of all, this isn't about hunting. Killing the bear is not a requirement. Stopping the attack is the criterion for success. And no, we don't see that it's always necessary to shoot the bear 15 times with the 10mm or .45ACP to stop the attack.
Look, it's clear that you don't believe 10mm and .45ACP are adequate for bear self-defense. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. But that can't change the reality that people have, on multiple occasions successfully used these calibers to stop bear attacks. Opinions don't change reality--neither does trying to change the definition of "successful self-defense". No matter how you try to spin it, the facts are plain. These calibers have been repeatedly used to successfully defend against bear attacks. What's more we aren't seeing the numerous failure stories that would inevitably be present if your opinion were valid.
TomJ
Member
I believe this article has previously been quoted on this forum. Is it accurate? If yes, a 98% success rate is impressive. While many of the stops were made with large caliber revolvers such as 44 magnums, many were also made with semi automatics ranging from 10mm on down. As the article states they were addressing the claim that there were "legions" of incidents where handguns failed to stop a bear attack. Did they fail to mention additional incidents where handguns failed?
In regards to the definition of a failure, we can debate that but as far as I'm concerned if I'm attacked by a bear, use my handgun to defend myself and I go home afterwards, that's a success regardless of whether I killed the bear or it ran off.
Handgun Defenses Against Bear Attacks - 170 Documented Incidents, 98% Effective
There are now 170 documented cases, with 146 of those cases where handguns only are fired in defense against bear attacks. Handguns are effective 98% of the time.
www.ammoland.com
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WisBorn
Contributing Member
The Ammoland study listed 4 failures.
A 22lr, 38 special, 357mag, and 44. If you don't dive into the facts you could say revolvers are not suitable. In the case of the 38 they missed the bear with the six shots. If the defender hit the bear with 2 or 3 of the shots the result could of been totally different.
I'm not saying revolvers are not suitable.
www.ammoland.com
www.ammoland.com
A 22lr, 38 special, 357mag, and 44. If you don't dive into the facts you could say revolvers are not suitable. In the case of the 38 they missed the bear with the six shots. If the defender hit the bear with 2 or 3 of the shots the result could of been totally different.
I'm not saying revolvers are not suitable.
Fourth Defensive Handgun Failure Against Bears Discovered
A fourth failure of the firing of a handgun to stop a bear attack has been discovered. No person or bear was injured. The incident will be included in the statistics for the next update.
www.ammoland.com
Lessons From Handgun Defense Failures Against Bears
Of 123 documented cases where handguns were fired in defense against bears, three failures were documented. Here are the three cases, analysis and commentary.
www.ammoland.com
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
EDIT: I'm not going to continue with this absurd argument. The 10mm is a deer cartridge, period.
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Ft
a 240 grain lswc @1200 fps in your 44 mag should suffice for your woods carry (not too hot, not too cold). you can always make your bug bigger for the crack-heads.
murf
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I will say this, what's interesting is the stringent criticism of the .454 video, that is notably absent from the bear shooting "study".
The video is just an example and an extreme example at that. As I recall, it was a factory 300gr load, which is going to be north of 50,000psi. One does not need full pressure .454 for bears and I would even advise against it. I shot my water buffalo with 300gr bronze solid at 1450fps and in the video, it looks like I'm shooting a PPC gun. All you really need is a heavy bullet over 300gr at 1000fps. My favorite being the 355gr .44 that used to be available from Beartooth, now from Montana Bullet Works. This load will penetrate nearly DOUBLE that of the best 10mm loads. No need to beat yourself up and I think the difference in speed of follow-up is greatly exaggerated by folks who've obviously never done it. I also think some of the 10mm fanciers need a shot timer. Again, highlighting the lack of perspective from some of the commenters.
The video is just an example and an extreme example at that. As I recall, it was a factory 300gr load, which is going to be north of 50,000psi. One does not need full pressure .454 for bears and I would even advise against it. I shot my water buffalo with 300gr bronze solid at 1450fps and in the video, it looks like I'm shooting a PPC gun. All you really need is a heavy bullet over 300gr at 1000fps. My favorite being the 355gr .44 that used to be available from Beartooth, now from Montana Bullet Works. This load will penetrate nearly DOUBLE that of the best 10mm loads. No need to beat yourself up and I think the difference in speed of follow-up is greatly exaggerated by folks who've obviously never done it. I also think some of the 10mm fanciers need a shot timer. Again, highlighting the lack of perspective from some of the commenters.
Hugger-4641
Member
What does Ft mean?
My dog can probably out run the bear. As the bear will be gorging on dinner.
OP
OP
someguy2800
Member
I still think the best cartridge for you is the biggest one you can shoot really well, and really quickly under stress.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
You brought up some good points. But I'll address this point:
The "brown bear" aspect was brought up because this is a thread started about two different cartridges for bear defense.
Nobody was saying brown bears are the only threat.
Also, given the broad responses here from so many people on this subject, it's apparent that there are a significant number who don't have a clue just how BIG a brown bear can be.
Below is a picture of what looks to be a front paw of one (the back ones are about 50% longer and wider than the front ones). You can see by the human hand holding it that it's HUGE.
An adult male can reach 1,500 pounds and, when standing, almost touch a basketball hoop (10 feet off the ground) with it's head at 9 feet.
Their claws are up to 4 1/2 inches long and the fur is THICK at nearly 5 inches.
It's truly MASSIVE and just as comparatively powerful.
Though many are significantly smaller, especially the females, they are definitely not cuddly teddy bears when they attack. An angry 1,500 pounds and 9 feet of standing body length hurdling towards one is a challenging target even armed with the best firearm.
While something is better than nothing, people shouldn't fool themselves that getting bullets on target, through thick fur, tough skin, thick layers of fat and muscle, and the occasional bone here and there that's designed to support all that angry meat is going to be either easy or even likely effective.
It is, at that point, a last ditch effort at survival against significant odds with underwhelming defense in a pistol.
Here's that picture I mentioned. Note that this paw could pretty much cover an adult man's entire chest.
codytrucker
Member
I'm in N.W. Wyoming , and have hunted , camped , fished , hiked and just rambled around grizzly bear country for the last 30 years or so . I have never been mauled by , or had to shoot a bear , but I know several people that have . Bears are serious business , and not to be trifled with . I've seen what they can do to people , and they can do horrifying damage .
For years I carried either a 44 mag , or a heavy loaded 45LC , both Ruger Blackhawks . Given todays options , and the increased bear population and higher frequency of altercation, I would absolutely carry a high capacity 10MM . It is just the right compromise of power , portability and quickness to get into action and get off more rounds , that makes it so practical. I don't think I know anybody that carries a 45 auto .
A defensive bear shooting and a hunting bear shooting are nothing alike . You wont get a shoulder breaking , heart lung shot in a defensive situation , the bear will be coming straight on , most likely you will be shooting down at it and its head will be bobbing up and down and swaying side to side . So its head , neck , spine , front end trying to get it stopped At ranges of 45 feet and in . Being cool hand Luke and making one , well aimed shot sounds good , but no one goes to the mountains with a Howdah pistol for a reason .
For years I carried either a 44 mag , or a heavy loaded 45LC , both Ruger Blackhawks . Given todays options , and the increased bear population and higher frequency of altercation, I would absolutely carry a high capacity 10MM . It is just the right compromise of power , portability and quickness to get into action and get off more rounds , that makes it so practical. I don't think I know anybody that carries a 45 auto .
A defensive bear shooting and a hunting bear shooting are nothing alike . You wont get a shoulder breaking , heart lung shot in a defensive situation , the bear will be coming straight on , most likely you will be shooting down at it and its head will be bobbing up and down and swaying side to side . So its head , neck , spine , front end trying to get it stopped At ranges of 45 feet and in . Being cool hand Luke and making one , well aimed shot sounds good , but no one goes to the mountains with a Howdah pistol for a reason .
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