10mm vs 45 ACP which has more stopping power.

[481]

Nice post, 45auto.

 

[ATLDave]

45 auto, are you contending that, in the aggregate, there is NO difference in outcomes between (handgun) cartridges? That, if we were to shoot 100 different people in precisely the same non-CNS place, the percentage of those who would "stop" would be exactly the same whether we are using full-house .44 magnum loads or .25 ACP?

The fact that an individual incident works out one way or another doesn't mean there is no difference. Smoking is widely understood to be a serious health risk, despite the fact that there are people who have lived 100+ years while smoking, and plenty of people who never took a puff die in their 30's. Does that mean that the experts are wrong, and we should all fire up the unfiltered Lucky Strikes?

 

[Loosedhorse]

#1 doesn't care what caliber you're using.

Why do you say that? You believe it is impossible that there are attackers out there that might "shake off" a non-lethal hit with a .22, but hit them in the same place with a .40, they'd think that something really bad just happened, and change gear?

You could be right. But I think it's a continuum. Some will be "psychologically stopped" by mere sight of the gun, some by the shot (even if it misses), some by any shot that hits, and some by only a shot that really thumps them.

And of course, some will only be stopped by actual physical damage.

#2 Central Nervous System hit - brain or spine hit

Some believe that the brain can also be affected by a ballistic pressure wave.

Finally, you seem to have no listing of any mechanism that might stop an attacker the same way a good gut punch can stop an attacker. You can call it "pain" or "psychological" if you want, but if you've seen it happen (or had it happen to you), the fighter seems physically unable to get up for a time. Not something that can just be "shaken off" if you're mentally tough.

I'm not sure if those who don't mention such a possible "stopping" mechanism believe such stops don't happen in response to bullets for some reason; or if they believe those stops don't really occur with blows, either.

 

[stinger 327]

Why do you say that? You believe it is impossible that there are attackers out there that might "shake off" a non-lethal hit with a .22, but hit them in the same place with a .40, they'd think that something really bad just happened, and change gear?

You could be right. But I think it's a continuum. Some will be "psychologically stopped" by mere sight of the gun, some by the shot (even if it misses), some by any shot that hits, and some by only a shot that really thumps them.

And of course, some will only be stopped by actual physical damage.Some believe that the brain can also be affected by a ballistic pressure wave.

Finally, you seem to have no listing of any mechanism that might stop an attacker the same way a good gut punch can stop an attacker. You can call it "pain" or "psychological" if you want, but if you've seen it happen (or had it happen to you, the fighter seems physically unable to get up for a time. Not something that can just be "shaken off" if you're mentally tough.

I'm not sure if those who don't mention such a possible "stopping" mechanism believe such stops don't happen in response to bullets for some reason; or if they believe those stops don't really with blows, either.

Wasn't the .22 LR the preferred choice of assasins?

 

[Loosedhorse]

I am just enjoying the show

Well, I guess since you're the sideshow, that's fine.

Wasn't the .22 LR the preferred choice of assasins?

I know little of "professional" assassins besides standard popular lore. The only true assassin I know who used a .22LR was John Hinkley; his rounds were impressively (and unfortunately) effective on some of his victims, but Mr. Reagan did not realize at first he'd been shot.

 

[ATLDave]

Finally, you seem to have no listing of any mechanism that might stop an attacker the same way a good gut punch can stop an attacker. You can call it "pain" or "psychological" if you want, but if you've seen it happen (or had it happen to you), the fighter seems physically unable to get up for a time. Not something that can just be "shaken off" if you're mentally tough.

I'm not sure if those who don't mention such a possible "stopping" mechanism believe such stops don't happen in response to bullets for some reason; or if they believe those stops don't really occur with blows, either.

Good point. Makes me think about getting the wind knocked out of me as a kid. Surely that happens sometimes from a gunshot...

 

[mavracer]

It will make no difference in any case.

Miami 1986 had Jerry Dove had 2" more penatration Platt. Wouldn't have been able to climb half way out the window to a second firiing position and kill him.

 

[stinger 327]

Well, I guess since you're the sideshow, that's fine.I know little of "professional" assassins besides standard popular lore. The only true assassin I know who used a .22LR was John Hinkley; his rounds were impressively (and unfortunately) effective on some of his victims, but Mr. Reagan did not realize at first he'd been shot.

Did they have Stingers or Aguila .22LR hi velocity in those days?

 

[mavracer]

Finally, you seem to have no listing of any mechanism that might stop an attacker the same way a good gut punch can stop an attacker. You can call it "pain" or "psychological" if you want, but if you've seen it happen (or had it happen to you), the fighter seems physically unable to get up for a time. Not something that can just be "shaken off" if you're mentally tough.

I can attest to the fact that a body shot from a middle weight is a lot easier to shrug off than one from a LT heavyweight.

 

[45_auto]

Miami 1986 had Jerry Dove had 2" more penatration Platt. Wouldn't have been able to climb half way out the window to a second firiing position and kill him.

If the bullet had been any bigger than 9mm in diameter (say maybe 10mm) it would have nicked Platt's upper arm bone (humerous bone), been deflected down, and would have never made it into his chest to bleed him out at all. (see scans from Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI firefight below). Then he would have killed all of the other FBI agents instead of just killing Grogan and Dove.

We can play what if maybe's all day, still not going to make any difference in the real world. Anybody that thinks they can predict the performance of a handgun bullet after it's traveled half the length of someone's arm is dreaming.

#1 doesn't care what caliber you're using.

Why do you say that? You believe it is impossible that there are attackers out there that might "shake off" a non-lethal hit with a .22, but hit them in the same place with a .40, they'd think that something really bad just happened, and change gear?

If it's a non-lethal hit, the only reason he's going to stop is psychological, no matter whether you're using a .22 or a .44 magnum. I believe it is highly unlikely that anyone will measure the diameter of the hole in themself before they make the decision to stop what they're doing.

Finally, you seem to have no listing of any mechanism that might stop an attacker the same way a good gut punch can stop an attacker.

Hold butt of your pistol against your gut and pull the trigger. That's exactly how much of a "gut punch" your round is going to deliver to an attacker. Only stopping mechanism similar to what you're talking about that I'm aware of is temporary wound cavity effects from a high-power rifle bullet, as I referred to in my little paragraph on #2. No handgun bullet comes close to causing such effects.

Anybody that is serious about defending themself with a handgun and hasn't read Ed Mireles's comments on the Miami shootout really ought to read them. I met him at a class in 1991, I wouldn't want to mess with him. I'll scan them in later tonight.

 

[Loosedhorse]

If it's a non-lethal hit, the only reason he's going to stop is psychological

As stated in my previous post, I disagree with your conclusion; there may be two other mechanisms.

I believe it is highly unlikely that anyone will measure the diameter of the hole in themself before they make the decision to stop what they're doing.

Of course; a very funny if silly statement.

However the real question is whether it would feel different to be hit by a .22LR solid, vs. (for example) .44 Magnum JHP. If it does feel different, then the assailant might be more psychologically likely to stop with the one that feels like a greater injury, even if both are non-lethal.

Even if he doesn't stop to measure the hole. Ah, good one!

That's exactly how much of a "gut punch" your round is going to deliver to an attacker.

Completely wrong. The energy of the bullet's motion is far greater than the energy of the pistol's motion.

Here's a thought: take that .44 Mag revolver, load it, cock it, and hold it very loosely (with just your finger tips) pointed safely downrange with the butt about an inch in front of your nose as you pull the trigger.* And report back to us about the psychology that ensues.

And realize that the energy of the bullet would have been about 100 times more.

*I know this is obvious, but for clarity: no, please don't do that.

I'll scan them in later tonight.

Appreciated.

 

[Maple_City_Woodsman]

Of course a more powerful round may well destroy both the Brachial and deep Brachial arteries along with more of the smaller arteries causing more blood loss and even faster incapisatation. Besides banking on hitting the brachial artery with a 22 or 25 is a lot dumber than arguing 10mm vs 45acp.

Of course. I am certainly not recommending a 22 or 25 as combat pistols, nor would I recommend the intentional targeting of such a small structure.

The example of a limb shot with a .22 is intended to be a little absurd. The sobering reality however, is that even this most marginal shot with a most marginal cartridge can not only be deadly, but quickly incapacitating as well.

To paint an even clearer picture, the story i referenced earlier took place many decades ago, before reliable semi-automatic .22s or high velocity loadings were available. That policeman was killed with and old standard velocity lead ball, probably making no more than 700fps from the tube of an old pocket revolver

We like to pretend that something akin to a P-22 or Bersa 22 isn't acceptable for carry, but reality is that even a single wound from such a weapon has more than enough power to drop any one of us in our tracks if one of those little pills strikes home.

Again, that is in no way an admonishment for their primary use as such, but it is certainly good practice to keep that in the back of our minds.

 

[mavracer]

Want me to let you in on a secret on how to double your puny handgun "stopping power", no matter which cartridge you're using? Shoot him again!

It can't according to you and 481 "stopping power" doesn't exist. So shooting them twice can have no more effect.
See according to your "stopping power" doesn't exist theory. a 9mm with 147 gr bullets at 1050fps and a wound volume of 2.8 cu.in. is equal to a 10mm with a 180gr bullet at 980fps (FBI lite load) and a wound volume of 4.2 cu.in. so if damaging 1.4 cu.in. more tissue is no more effective, shooting them twice with a 9mm and disrupting 5.6 cu.in. which is 1.4 cu.in. more than the a single 10mm damages, should be no more effective than the single 10mm round which is no more effective than the single 9mm round.

The example of a limb shot with a .22 is intended to be a little absurd.

Not even close to the absurdity of my "stopping power" doesn't exist example.

 

[Maple_City_Woodsman]

So shooting them twice can have no more effect.

I think you are totally misunderstanding your opponents positions.

Nobody here is claiming that different sizes and types of ammunition don't have different effect - simply that variance in said effect is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall effect of a properly placed shot.

Of course a second shot can have additional effect - it gives you additional opportunity to make more hits on additional structures.

There is a level of obtuseness that serves to clarify a point ... and then there is a level that obscures any point you may have made. The line is a fine one.

 

[exavid]

I always thought that the 18 rounds in my 9mm was to make up for it's lesser punch. My inclination would be to keep pumping rounds into whatever was accosting me until the pistol went 'click'. I'd do the same whether it was my .380, 9mm, .40S&W or .45ACP. Since every possible scenario is different it's impossible to say what pistol or caliber would be best. As for the choice between a 10mm or a .45 I'd say it comes down to the pistol that fits your hand best, which one you find easier to shoot more accurately. I can shoot my compact .40 accurately at 25yds for a twelve rounds or so but after that my accuracy begins to deteriorate from recoil fatigue. I can fire more rounds through my larger .45 pistol before I start to lose my edge. It just depends on the person.

 

[stinger 327]

I always thought that the 18 rounds in my 9mm was to make up for it's lesser punch. My inclination would be to keep pumping rounds into whatever was accosting me until the pistol went 'click'. I'd do the same whether it was my .380, 9mm, .40S&W or .45ACP. Since every possible scenario is different it's impossible to say what pistol or caliber would be best. As for the choice between a 10mm or a .45 I'd say it comes down to the pistol that fits your hand best, which one you find easier to shoot more accurately. I can shoot my compact .40 accurately at 25yds for a twelve rounds or so but after that my accuracy begins to deteriorate from recoil fatigue. I can fire more rounds through my larger .45 pistol before I start to lose my edge. It just depends on the person.

"spray and pray" method?

 

[ShawnC]

The 10mm is a high velocity round that fires a 40 cal bullet at very high speeds. while the 45 fires a big 45 caliber bullet at a slow speed but still hits very hard. Both seem to be at the opposite ends of what makes up good stopping power, small and fast vs big and slow. Which one do you think has better stopping power.

A quick re read of the original post leads me to believe that no one really knew what the OP was asking. The assumption seems to be that when someone uses the term "stopping power" they mean "any area of the body at anytime". I doubt this is what the OP was implying. Obviously shot placement is implied in the question unless the OP believes that a .45 auto impacting someone's earlobe will stop them in their tracks (I don't think he does). He asked for a comparison of 2 rounds, the .45 ACP vs the 10mm. So any argument about a .25 Auto will stop a man if he is shot in the fatal triangle is out.
Center mass, which round is most likely to stop violent action or cause death the quickest? I don't claim to know. A 10mm ball from one brand may cause less physical destruction than a .45 JHP from another. Someone's hot reloaded 10MM may do better than a factory .45 FMJ . If my understanding is correct, and it may not be, a .45 has less penetration than a 10mm do to slower speeds and more expansion. To me, if a bullet goes deeper and has a high rate of expansion, it would cause more internal damage and possibly shut down a vital organ quicker.
But guess what? When I was in high school, a hockey goalie from a rival high school was hit square in the chest with a hockey puck and died instantly. Does anyone have the BC of the average regulation hockey puck available? I want to compare it to a 10 MM.

 

[stinger 327]

A quick re read of the original post leads me to believe that no one really knew what the OP was asking. The assumption seems to be that when someone uses the term "stopping power" they mean "any area of the body at anytime". I doubt this is what the OP was implying. Obviously shot placement is implied in the question unless the OP believes that a .45 auto impacting someone's earlobe will stop them in their tracks (I don't think he does). He asked for a comparison of 2 rounds, the .45 ACP vs the 10mm. So any argument about a .25 Auto will stop a man if he is shot in the fatal triangle is out.
Center mass, which round is most likely to stop violent action or cause death the quickest? I don't claim to know. A 10mm ball from one brand may cause less physical destruction than a .45 JHP from another. Someone's hot reloaded 10MM may do better than a factory .45 FMJ . If my understanding is correct, and it may not be, a .45 has less penetration than a 10mm do to slower speeds and more expansion. To me, if a bullet goes deeper and has a high rate of expansion, it would cause more internal damage and possibly shut down a vital organ quicker.
But guess what? When I was in high school, a hockey goalie from a rival high school was hit square in the chest with a hockey puck and died instantly. Does anyone have the BC of the average regulation hockey puck available? I want to compare it to a 10 MM.

The higher velocity round is usually better to shoot through barracades or cars. But .45ammo are easy to handle because of their size.

 

[mavracer]

Nobody here is claiming that different sizes and types of ammunition don't have different effect - simply that variance in said effect is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall effect of a properly placed shot.

you know if you'd stay with the standard 9mm 40 and 45acp rounds with 400-500 ft/lbs I'd be much more agreeable. but in this thread the OP introduced the 10mm which with full house loads is well in excess of 700 ft/lbs with 165gr golddots driven 1400 fps it'll expand to over an inch and still penatrate 15" it's permanent wound channel volume is more than twice that of typical 9mm SD loadings. which effectivly doubles the area for a spine shot to be effective, twice the area to destroy major arteries, twice the amount of lung tissue bleeding or twice as big of hole in the heart.
And if you in a gunfight your luck is already running bad I wouldn't count on gettin lucky with the apricot .

 

[481]

I think you are totally misunderstanding your opponents positions.

Nobody here is claiming that different sizes and types of ammunition don't have different effect - simply that variance in said effect is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall effect of a properly placed shot.

Of course a second shot can have additional effect - it gives you additional opportunity to make more hits on additional structures.

There is a level of obtuseness that serves to clarify a point ... and then there is a level that obscures any point you may have made. The line is a fine one.

MCW,

It is encouraging to see that all is not lost here and that rational thought can still prevail. I've given up trying to explain, re-explain and re-re-explain the points that you've articulated above and commend you on your outstanding patience.

Nice job.

 

[mortablunt]

I believe that this can be solved with some demotivational posters.




And some predictions

 

[exavid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by exavid
I always thought that the 18 rounds in my 9mm was to make up for it's lesser punch. My inclination would be to keep pumping rounds into whatever was accosting me until the pistol went 'click'. I'd do the same whether it was my .380, 9mm, .40S&W or .45ACP. Since every possible scenario is different it's impossible to say what pistol or caliber would be best. As for the choice between a 10mm or a .45 I'd say it comes down to the pistol that fits your hand best, which one you find easier to shoot more accurately. I can shoot my compact .40 accurately at 25yds for a twelve rounds or so but after that my accuracy begins to deteriorate from recoil fatigue. I can fire more rounds through my larger .45 pistol before I start to lose my edge. It just depends on the person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinger 327
"spray and pray" method


More or less but the spray pattern will be pretty tight.

 

[ugaarguy]

you know if you'd stay with the standard 9mm 40 and 45acp rounds with 400-500 ft/lbs I'd be much more agreeable. but in this thread the OP introduced the 10mm which with full house loads is well in excess of 700 ft/lbs with 165gr golddots driven 1400 fps it'll expand to over an inch and still penatrate 15" it's permanent wound channel volume is more than twice that of typical 9mm SD loadings.

You may wish to acquaint yourself Federal HST. The 9mm 147 gr. loading has hit 13.25" penetration with expansion to .821" in bare gel. It's pretty awesome.

 

[mavracer]

You may wish to acquaint yourself Federal HST. The 9mm 147 gr. loading has hit 13.25" penetration with expansion to .821" in bare gel. It's pretty awesome.

I actually prefer the 147gr Ranger Ts they have a little more penatration. But as for awesome it still pales. .821 dia and 13.25" converts to a little under 7 cu.in. while 1.0 dia and 15.5" is just over 12 cu.in.
now will it matter I have no idea. But suggesting it won't make any difference ever, because it doesn't sometimes, would be like saying "just carry an unloaded gun because sometimes just the sight of a gun might be enough".

 

[stinger 327]

I actually prefer the 147gr Ranger Ts they have a little more penatration. But as for awesome it still pales. .821 dia and 13.25" converts to a little under 7 cu.in. while 1.0 dia and 15.5" is just over 12 cu.in.
now will it matter I have no idea. But suggesting it won't make any difference ever, because it doesn't sometimes, would be like saying "just carry an unloaded gun because sometimes just the sight of a gun might be enough".

What about Buffalo Bore ammo?