10mm vs. 45ACP

[Hosh]

I am considering getting a self defense pistol, full size in either 45ACP or 10mm. I have read lots of threads on .45 vs .40 vs 9mm but not as much on this subject. What are the advantages, disadvantages?

Thanks

 

[dev_null]

I'm no ballistics expert, I'm guessing a better comparison would be 10mm vs .45+P since the 10 is definitely higher velocity than a standard .45 round. (I own and shoot both.)

See http://ballisticscalculator.winchester.com/

Another comparison from http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/ballistics.aspx:

Remington Golden Saber 10mm 180gr: 1150fps / 529ft/lbs
Remington Golden Saber .45+P 185gr: 1140fps / 534ft/lbs

.45 will be easier to find and probably less expensive.

 

[56hawk]

Remington Golden Saber 10mm 180gr: 1150fps / 529ft/lbs
Remington Golden Saber .45+P 185gr: 1140fps / 534ft/lbs

That 10mm load is a bit on the weak side. I have no problem getting over 1200fps with a 200 grain bullet out of my S&W 1076.

Anyway with standard pressure loads in both calibers, the 10mm is way more powerful than the 45ACP. Of course that doesn't mean that it is way more effective. The FBI found that the downloaded 10mm (what became the 40 S&W) was the most effective for their use.

Advantages for the 10mm are that you have a higher magazine capacity and a more powerful round. The disadvantages are higher recoil and muzzle blast.

 

[flyskater]

10mm for CCW?
Have you all heard of the Harold Fish trial when he used his 10mm for defense? There were alot to this story, but one of the points was that the prosecution convinced the jury that the 10mm was too much for defense.
I love my 10mm but I do think twice about using it for CCW.

 

[orionengnr]

I own, enjoy and handload for both.

The 10mm is a great round, but if you do not handload, it's probably not the best choice. Finding "real" 10mm ammo is not easy and not cheap. Even finding "range" 10mm (.40S&W power/twice the price) will be more difficult and more expensive than .45acp.

If you are a handloader, you will not find 10mm brass laying around at your local range as you will .45 acp brass (well, I do, anyway). You will not find once-fired 10mm brass either cheap or plentiful. Being a high-pressure round, the 10mm brass will not last as long as .45acp brass.

I'm not trying to talk you out of buying a 10mm; it is a great round, it is very satisfying to load for and enjoyable to shoot. But it is a bit more of a high-effort round.

If you are going in, go in with your eyes open. Compared to .45 acp, "real" 10mm loads are tougher on a gun (wear and tear) tougher on the shooter (recoil) and tougher on the wallet (either ammo expense or reloading component availability/expense).

P.S.--there are lots of 10mm threads here--read as many as you can, then make up your own mind. And if you decide to join the 10mm Club, welcome. You will be in pretty good company.

 

[Slamfire]

I remember when the 10 mm first came out. It had 41 Magnum ballistics.

I watched a gentleman shoot a Colt 10mm in an IPSC match. There was a lot of recoil and the brass had a large ejection distance. I suspect 10mm shooters lose a lot of brass.

The original ballistics of a 200 grain round at 1200 fps are excellent. I think people liked the ballistics and did not like the recoil.

Which is why we have the 40 S&W.

 

[TwoWheelFiend]

10mm is a great and powerful round. Easy to reload as well (and you can reload for .40 S&W with 10mm dies). But like others have said it is not cheap if you plan on buying factory ammo (altho nothing is cheap now-a-days) As compared to .45ACP it has definitive performance edge. Ive only shot Glocks in 10mm and i find that their grips are way too big for my not huge hands

 

[HDCamel]

10mm is better, but .45 has been good enough for 100 years.
Aside from that, .45 is cheaper and a greater variety of firearms are available in .45 ACP.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Have you all heard of the Harold Fish trial when he used his 10mm for defense? There were alot to this story, but one of the points was that the prosecution convinced the jury that the 10mm was too much for defense.
I love my 10mm but I do think twice about using it for CCW.

You know, I've wondered if this could be an issue in court. I almost bought a .44 magnum for carry, but thought it was over kill. Ummm.... pun intended.... I guess. I wrote the idea off do to overpenetration dangers in a city or town environment. I figured it would only be worth it for the woods. But then I bought a 5" 460 mag for that, and still don't own a .44. It's a good point though, and something to think about. If bad guys are your concern, this is probably a lot more gun than you need.

 

[Thompsoncustom]

Here's a real 10mm round:
http://www.swampfoxgunworks.com/swampfox/product.php?productid=17681&cat=397&page=1

I think the 10mm and the .45 super would be closer but the 45 ACP just doesn't have the same ballistic performance as the 10mm.

 

[zoom6zoom]

Which is why we have the 40 S&W.

Which I like to call the 10mm Kurz. Messes with people's brains.

 

[Viper225]

The 10mm was a little much for most platforms as originally loaded from what I understand. The S&W 10 series, and the Colt Deltas would get beat up in fairly short order with full power ammo. The G20 was about the only platform that would stand a steady diet of full house 10mm ammo.
The ammo makers responded by down loading almost all the available ammo.
I have chronographed 10mm and 40 S&W ammo (Remington) where the 40 S&W loading was faster with the same bullet.

I am a big 10mm fan. I however do not have a 10mm in a semi auto package. I have a 610 No Dash and a 310 Night Guard. I conceal carry the 310 all the time. It is a great carry gun.

Revolver advantages:
01. It will shoot Full House ammo with no issues.
02. The 610 and 310 both use Full Moon Clips. What this means is that 40 S&W ammo which is cheap and easy to find will shoot out of a 10mm revolver just fine.

As I am not a Big Glock Fan, I would go with a S&W revolver over a Glock 20.

Just my 2 Cents

Bob

 

[dprice3844444]

keep it simple,shtf,10mm will be in short supply compared to 45acp,plus 45 acp available in military ball surplus

 

[scaatylobo]

Original 10 MM v/s the over the counter stuff

The original 10 MM was very close to a .41 magnum load.

It was created for the FBI after the infamous Miami shootout as they blamed the 9 MM for the failure to stop a perp that then killed 2 agents.

I was just about to buy a 10 MM Glock when I looked at all the ammunition available [ I reload very little ] so factory ammo was the way I was going.

I wanted it for hunting,hog/bear backup.

After looking and playing with the spec's on the boxes of ammo,I found my Glock .40S&W was as close as possible to over the counter 10 MM.

So my advise is,unless your going to find or reload REAL 10 MM ,Dont go that way.

I instead bought a Glock 30 SF [ slim frame ] and I will be taking her out to T&E this thur.

All goes well and she might replace my EDC Glock 23 that has been carried for well over 10 years.

Good luck in your choices.

And I agree with NOT intentionally carrying a 10 MM for S/D.

 

[AABEN]

A 10mm 145gr is about as good as a 44mag 215gr SW it is also close to the 41mag

 

[GregGry]

Carrying a hot 10mm comes with it the responsibility of realizing overpenetration is a serious possibility. Every round you shoot is YOUR round, and if you hit something unintentional be it with a miss or a shoot through you can and will be held accountable. There are plenty of good 10mm rounds for self defense. Using 800ftlb muzzle energy hot loaded rounds is less then ideal.

As far as Harold fish, his gun choice had nothing to do with his conviction. Your firearm choice can and will be used against you (with very little effect) in any self defense case. What you used for a firearm is only a piece of evidence, it doesn't prove anything other then the fact it was the gun used in the self defense.

 

[230therapy]

Have you all heard of the Harold Fish trial when he used his 10mm for defense? There were alot to this story, but one of the points was that the prosecution convinced the jury that the 10mm was too much for defense.

It wasn't a good shoot. There was too much slop in the story. I am wondering about the competence of the defense attorney considering that it's the behavior, not the gear, that matters.

As far as Harold fish, his gun choice had nothing to do with his conviction.

Do you have a link to an article or two regarding that case (and specifically that topic)?

 

[Strykervet]

Carrying a hot 10mm comes with it the responsibility of realizing overpenetration is a serious possibility. Every round you shoot is YOUR round, and if you hit something unintentional be it with a miss or a shoot through you can and will be held accountable. There are plenty of good 10mm rounds for self defense. Using 800ftlb muzzle energy hot loaded rounds is less then ideal.

As far as Harold fish, his gun choice had nothing to do with his conviction. Your firearm choice can and will be used against you (with very little effect) in any self defense case. What you used for a firearm is only a piece of evidence, it doesn't prove anything other then the fact it was the gun used in the self defense.

Yeah, it did. And that was why it got overturned, he got set free, and now they have a law that prevents that and other things that went wrong during that trial from happening again.

I carry a 10mm sometimes. I have a G29 and a G27 with identical rigs, I prefer the 10mm because it is more accurate and comfortable, and a tad more powerful with the heavier bullets. I have a G20 with adj. target night sights set up a lot like my G17L, that thing rocks at the range. A lot of fun. I have a G21, but I don't use it much. I was thinking of turning it into a .50GI. I like odd calibres.

I also have a 1006. I may or may not carry it, it is thin enough though. I've gotten 180gr. Gold Dots up to 1344fps in it, but I bet those are probably overkill for carry. XTP's are good in the 10mm, but they penetrate even more. Those 200gr. bullets are something else, real flat shooting too. In 10mm, the Gold Dot is the bullet you want for carry, 180gr. It is softer and has a huge cavity and they expand well. XTP's have been known to plug and go two or three feet in gelatin with the 10mm, they work like FMJ's. The Hornady 200gr. FMJ's are TOUGH. Thick copper jackets, good for defense against anything in N. America save the biggest grizzlies and polar bears. And it might work for them too if you are a good shot. 10mm is very versatile.

.45 is good for defense, great really, I just like the 10mm because it is more fun to shoot and load, and considering I carry a lot and draw never, but I shoot a lot at the range, I carry what I shoot. If .45 was my favorite, I'd certainly carry that. So I guess that is how to make the choice, what do you like to shoot? Because chances are, you won't "need" it and either will work fine for defense, just with the 10mm you have to be careful because some can work a little too well, in public anyways. Factory ammo comes watered down, I like it a little warmer, but not full nuclear tens. Like I said, it is versatile, and with mediocre 10mm loads you get reduced recoil compared to a .40 with more power too.

If 10mm has anything over the .45 as far as defense goes, you CAN load 10mm more powerful making it good for city and country, and the 10mm G20 holds 15rds. You can also get magnum, semi auto power with ten rounds in a compact package with the G29. And the 1006, that tank is basically a semi auto .41magnum. Also, pretty much all the 10mm pistols are quality pieces. EAA Witness is the cheapest one. So you can't get junk as long as it is in good shape.

 

[PabloJ]

In this case there is ZERO reason to pick 10mm over .45ACP.

 

[Willfully Armed]

pablo made me LOL.



10MM is a handloaders dream.

I can load them as light as a 38spl powder puff load... or as hot as factory 44.

My Idpa load was a 155 gr @ 850 fps. Shot softer than my current IDPA 9mm load of 147gr @ 875fps.

Pros
15+1 capacity. More versatility. Easy to load. Superior ballistics.

Con
45 factory ammo is easier to find

 

[PabloJ]

pablo made me LOL.



10MM is a handloaders dream.

I can load them as light as a 38spl powder puff load... or as hot as factory 44.

My Idpa load was a 155 gr @ 850 fps. Shot softer than my current IDPA 9mm load of 147gr @ 875fps.

Pros
15+1 capacity. More versatility. Easy to load. Superior ballistics.

Con
45 factory ammo is easier to find

Yeh reloading rates right up there with mowing my own lawn or trimming shrubbery which would take couple of days.

 

[Wildbillz]

Man, I had also been looking at a 10mm. You guys have just about talked me out of it. I may just stick to my 40S&W or 9mm.

I knew that getting 10mm brass was not going to be easy. I have only ever found just a few on on the range. I posted adds on several board and got some steep offers to sell once fired for just a bit under (in some cases over)what I could buy brand new brass for.

I hadn't even thought of the legal issue that could arise from using it.

Much to ponder
WB

 

[intercooler]

I won't give a history lesson or get off on an unrelated subject and stick to what you asked.


Disadvantages: Ammo will typically run a little more than .45ACP. Just about all platforms of 10mm though you can shoot .40 with a barrel swap. The 10mm is worth the extra couple pennies in pure fun! Only one I can think of.

Advantages: Capacity, can purchase ammo loaded way down for HD or way up for anything else. More enery at 100 yds than .45ACP has at the muzzle. The .45 rounds can be loaded up +P but still fall way short of 10mm by far. The 10mm will yeild more sectional density than .45ACP.

 

[GregGry]

Yeah, it did. And that was why it got overturned, he got set free, and now they have a law that prevents that and other things that went wrong during that trial from happening again.

Read the case in full and cite where the gun was the deciding factor. His gun was questioned as would any gun regardless of caliber, and that was the extent out of it. The reason he was convicted was due to the fact his attorney could not prove to the jury that the man he shot was capable of causing him death or great bodily harm. Why is that? Because it was clearly stated that the man didn't have a knife or a gun, and lack of disparity of force in the situation all pointed that he used deadly force when it shouldn't have been.

When it comes down to it what does the gun you use prove in a self defense case? You already admit that you shot someone intentionally, since you did after all shoot until the threat was stopped (and that was what you intended to do). Your being tried (if it ever goes to trial) over issues of justification of using deadly force. How does the firearm you used prove anything regarding if you were justified? Does it prove the other person had a knife or a gun? Does it prove that there were 10 people trying to jump you? Does it prove someone had a knife to another's throat? No, the gun you used proves nothing.

 

[CDW4ME]

10mm Starline brass is just as easy to get from Midway as any other caliber.

Two comparable pistols and actual chrono averages:
Glock 30: Winchester Ranger T 230 gr. @ 874 fps / 390# KE / PF 201
Glock 29: Hornady 155 XTP @ 1,278 fps / 562# KE / PF 198

As determined by the power factor (PF) calculation, the recoil produced by these two loads from same size & weight pistols would be equivalent; it might not have the same feel, but the amount is about the same.

Which of those two loads is "better" for SD? (Either is "good")

Some downloaded factory 10mm ammunition is nothing more than 40 S&W, and at the other extreme some hot ammo will generate lots of recoil and possibly leave "smilies" on the brass when using a stock Glock barrel.

I like my G29 SF and the factory Hornady 155 XTP produces a nice compromise of power and controlability, wouldn't want any more recoil.

If you are willing to spend a little on a single stage press and a set of dies, 10mm ammunition can be had at comparable cost to other calibers; it doesn't cost me any more to load 155 gr. 10mm Hornady XTP bullets than it does 185 gr. XTP 45 acp bullets. I can load a 50 round box of either using new components for about $24 and can duplicate factory ballistics with either.

If you want to be able to go to the local "mart" and pick up a box of ammo the 45 wins.

The 45 has a bigger bullet, greater ammunition availability and selection; but, the 10mm offers what most consider to be an acceptable mid bore diameter with higher levels of KE.

If you adhere to the bigger is better philosophy then the 45 acp wins.

However, the 10mm is generally regarded as better for hunting whitetail deer or occasional SD against a black bear, so apparently bigger is not always better.