10mmshooter
Member
I'll keep my 10mm 1911 over anything currently offered.
10mm
- Thread starter RonGoode
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gunfan
Member
To paraphrase George Simpson Patton...
God help me, I do love them all!
God help me, I do love them all!
WOW! How did I miss this thread? Sorry guys. I hate to be the one to break this to ya, but the 10mm is on the upswing and the manufacturers know it! Industry-wide sales figures are up between 12% and 17% depending on who you talk to. DoubleTap has sold more than 100,000 rounds in its first 4 months. No less than 13 departments have ordered ammo for evaluation for officers that elect to carry the 10mm (from DoubleTap), and many more officers that have personally called and ordered on their own dime (also from DoubleTap). The 10mm is moving up, not down my friends! I can't wait to see what new 10mm's are at the next S.H.O.T. show in Las Vegas!
-Mike
PS- I love shooting all different calibers, why "hate" or try to put down a certain caliber? I have more guns than I know what to with, and I enjoy shooting them all, but my G29 rides my hip everyday stoked with 11rds of DoubleTap!
Industry-wide sales figures are up between 12% and 17% depending on who you talk to. DoubleTap has sold more than 100,000 rounds in its first 4 months. No less than 13 departments have ordered ammo for evaluation for officers that elect to carry the 10mm (from DoubleTap), and many more officers that have personally called and ordered on their own dime (also from DoubleTap). The 10mm is moving up, not down my friends! I can't wait to see what new 10mm's are at the next S.H.O.T. show in Las Vegas!-Mike
PS- I love shooting all different calibers, why "hate" or try to put down a certain caliber? I have more guns than I know what to with, and I enjoy shooting them all, but my G29 rides my hip everyday stoked with 11rds of DoubleTap!
Damn straight Pat! I wouldn't believe a word of this unless they provide absolute and irrefutable proof! That shouldn't be too tough. All they would have to do is turn your house into a main distribution point and ship every new 10mm gun and round of ammo to you so you can count them personally. That way you can prove to all those 10mm nuts that it really is a DEAD cartridge. Come on Pat, let's give them a wake up call! Who in the world would want to shoot a cartridge in which only Glock, Smith & Wesson, EAA, Kimber, Olympic Arms, Mech-Tech and Dan Wesson make guns for. And like where are you going to get ammo? I mean only Winchester, Reminton, Federal, Hornady, CCI, Double Tap, CorBon, ProLoad, PMC, Georgia Arms and a handful of smaller companies even make ammo for it! Come on people, wake up and smell the coffee! The 10mm Auto is D-E-A-D!!!
PS - Pat, I'd make 'em provide blood samples for DNA testing as well.
caz223
Member
LOL, give up pat.
Oh, and BTW: you've lost, sit down and take your medicine...
Oh, and BTW: you've lost, sit down and take your medicine...
"Industry-wide sales figures are up between 12% and 17% ..."
That's consistent with everything I've seen in the general gun press in the last 5 years, including a ShootingTimes report 3 years ago on the "spike" in sales of 10mm guns and ammo. The writer specifically noted increases in sales of Glock 20s and 29s (as reported by Glock) and that S&W had re-issued its 4" barrelled 610 revolver as a response to market interest (i.e, consumer demand). Since then, of course, Kimber and Dan Wesson have released their high-end 10mm 1911s, while Tanfaglio's relatively inexpensive full-size and compact Witnesses continue to be marketed and sold.
Doesn't sound at all like what you'd expect from a "dead round." Nope, what you're seeing is a continuing resurgence of the 10mm AUTO.
'Course, Pat's probably just emerged from hibernation with the bears up there in Alaska, so he might have missed the more recent developments.
That's consistent with everything I've seen in the general gun press in the last 5 years, including a ShootingTimes report 3 years ago on the "spike" in sales of 10mm guns and ammo. The writer specifically noted increases in sales of Glock 20s and 29s (as reported by Glock) and that S&W had re-issued its 4" barrelled 610 revolver as a response to market interest (i.e, consumer demand). Since then, of course, Kimber and Dan Wesson have released their high-end 10mm 1911s, while Tanfaglio's relatively inexpensive full-size and compact Witnesses continue to be marketed and sold.
Doesn't sound at all like what you'd expect from a "dead round." Nope, what you're seeing is a continuing resurgence of the 10mm AUTO.
'Course, Pat's probably just emerged from hibernation with the bears up there in Alaska, so he might have missed the more recent developments.
MikeD29
Member
Yea, but Agtman, the Glock 10's are the slowest seller for Glock. Again the 10 must be dead.
I certainly would not believe McNett, hell, he only sells ammo for a dead cartridge.
Guess I better sell my 2 Deltas, Razorback, 1076, and G29. Hey Pat, want to buy one or two??
I certainly would not believe McNett, hell, he only sells ammo for a dead cartridge.
Guess I better sell my 2 Deltas, Razorback, 1076, and G29. Hey Pat, want to buy one or two??
gunfan
Member
Well, dog my cats!
If this is for true, I'd better be selling my four handguns. I'd suffer from "brain strain" in justifying it! Parting with the most versatile handguns that I have ever owned, (Three pistols and one revolver) seems downright foolish and assinine!
Help me, I'm sooooo cornfused!!! NOT!!!
Scott
If this is for true, I'd better be selling my four handguns. I'd suffer from "brain strain" in justifying it! Parting with the most versatile handguns that I have ever owned, (Three pistols and one revolver) seems downright foolish and assinine!
Help me, I'm sooooo cornfused!!! NOT!!!
Scott
Glock, Smith & Wesson, EAA, Kimber, Olympic Arms, Mech-Tech and Dan Wesson make guns for
END
Ok of the guns on your list only Glock, Kimber and Smith and Wesson are serious makers. Kimber made a limited run of 10mm's. Its not a regular production item. Oly makes trash and they sell very few 1911's overall. Mech-Tech excuseme. Your counting a conversion kit as a gun. Thats desparate. If they made a blued and a stainless Kimber as 2 guns as well. Give me a break. Dan Wesson is also a very small company. If you include them you might as well include any gunsmith than will convert a 40sw 1911 to 10mm for you. Show me an acutal sales stat not a figure you think you might have read in a gun magazine. Of course Double Tap is going to tell you 10mm sales figures are up. Thats the market nitch he reloads his ammo for. If I made a shop that specialized in loading 38 long colt and then told you sales are up 100% when I got my first customer it would not exactly be honest. If 10mm sales are really up. I am happy for you and myself. That means I should be able to find a variety of 10mm shells when I go to the local gun shop. But I have not seen that.
You can tell me the 10mm is taking off when companies Sig, HK, Beretta, and Colt start making 10mm pistols. You can tell me they are taking off when Winchester makes a ranger in 10mm, When federal makes a Tactical and Personal defense load in 10mm, when speer starts selling golddots in 10mm.
If you like the round fine. It does an acceptable job. Its nothing special. Buy a 10mm and shoot to your hearts content. But don't piss on my leg and tell me its raining.
Pat
END
Ok of the guns on your list only Glock, Kimber and Smith and Wesson are serious makers. Kimber made a limited run of 10mm's. Its not a regular production item. Oly makes trash and they sell very few 1911's overall. Mech-Tech excuseme. Your counting a conversion kit as a gun. Thats desparate. If they made a blued and a stainless Kimber as 2 guns as well. Give me a break. Dan Wesson is also a very small company. If you include them you might as well include any gunsmith than will convert a 40sw 1911 to 10mm for you. Show me an acutal sales stat not a figure you think you might have read in a gun magazine. Of course Double Tap is going to tell you 10mm sales figures are up. Thats the market nitch he reloads his ammo for. If I made a shop that specialized in loading 38 long colt and then told you sales are up 100% when I got my first customer it would not exactly be honest. If 10mm sales are really up. I am happy for you and myself. That means I should be able to find a variety of 10mm shells when I go to the local gun shop. But I have not seen that.
You can tell me the 10mm is taking off when companies Sig, HK, Beretta, and Colt start making 10mm pistols. You can tell me they are taking off when Winchester makes a ranger in 10mm, When federal makes a Tactical and Personal defense load in 10mm, when speer starts selling golddots in 10mm.
If you like the round fine. It does an acceptable job. Its nothing special. Buy a 10mm and shoot to your hearts content. But don't piss on my leg and tell me its raining.
Pat
WheelMan
Member
I find it downright funny that somebody who uses the handle 355sigfan is railing on about 10mm.
gunfan
Member
Well...
The Hydra- Shok is Federal's version of "Personal Defense" ammunition for the cartridge that has been produced for over ten years. I'd personally examine such rash statements very carefully before making them.
JMHO,
Scott
The Hydra- Shok is Federal's version of "Personal Defense" ammunition for the cartridge that has been produced for over ten years. I'd personally examine such rash statements very carefully before making them.
JMHO,
Scott
I find it downright funny that somebody who uses the handle 355sigfan is railing on about 10mm.
END
The funny thing is even though I have started to move away from the 357 sig I have a much larger selection in this caliber than you do in the 10mm. I can buy guns from Glock (31.32.33), Sig (229,239,226), Beretta (Cougar), Hk(USP Compact) and Smith and Wesson(Sigma) in 357 sig. I can name a list of Fedral, State and City agencies using this round. I can find Winchester Ranger rounds, Federal Tactical rounds, Speer Golddots, Remington Golden Sabers ext in this caliber. Also if a shooter becomes disinterested in the 357 sig, its a barrel away from being a 40sw.
The 357 sig may die. But its too soon to tell. It has a good foothold in the leo community. It has much larger foot hold than the 10mm ever did in its hey day.
Pat
END
The funny thing is even though I have started to move away from the 357 sig I have a much larger selection in this caliber than you do in the 10mm. I can buy guns from Glock (31.32.33), Sig (229,239,226), Beretta (Cougar), Hk(USP Compact) and Smith and Wesson(Sigma) in 357 sig. I can name a list of Fedral, State and City agencies using this round. I can find Winchester Ranger rounds, Federal Tactical rounds, Speer Golddots, Remington Golden Sabers ext in this caliber. Also if a shooter becomes disinterested in the 357 sig, its a barrel away from being a 40sw.
The 357 sig may die. But its too soon to tell. It has a good foothold in the leo community. It has much larger foot hold than the 10mm ever did in its hey day.
Pat
The Hydra- Shok is Federal's version of "Personal Defense" ammunition for the cartridge that has been produced for over ten years. I'd personally examine such rash statements very carefully before making them.
END
You might want to take your own advice. The Personal Defense line uses Hydra Shock bullets but they are lighter in weight typically and are loaded to slightly higher velocities and they are sold under the PD line and not as Hydra Shocks. For example the 45 acp comes in a 230 grain Hydra Shocks, 185 grain Hydra shock a +p 185 grain Hydra shock. But the PD hydra shock that they are pushing is a 165 grain hydra shock. When Federal starts marketing a 10mm load under the PD name you can tell me I am wrong. Guess what they don't.
Pat
END
You might want to take your own advice. The Personal Defense line uses Hydra Shock bullets but they are lighter in weight typically and are loaded to slightly higher velocities and they are sold under the PD line and not as Hydra Shocks. For example the 45 acp comes in a 230 grain Hydra Shocks, 185 grain Hydra shock a +p 185 grain Hydra shock. But the PD hydra shock that they are pushing is a 165 grain hydra shock. When Federal starts marketing a 10mm load under the PD name you can tell me I am wrong. Guess what they don't.
Pat
WheelMan
Member
I have a 40 barrel for my 10mm witness.
I have a 40 barrel for my 10mm witness.
END
Thats true you can get a barrell for 40sw and 357 sig. A 357 sig shooter can get a barrel for 40sw and 9mm. However if a 357 sig shooter becomes unhappy he can go to the 40sw. The 40sw is the same size gun so he is not giving anything up. The 10mm shooter if he decided to carry the 40sw permantely is stuck with a 45 framed gun and gives up concealability.
Pat
END
Thats true you can get a barrell for 40sw and 357 sig. A 357 sig shooter can get a barrel for 40sw and 9mm. However if a 357 sig shooter becomes unhappy he can go to the 40sw. The 40sw is the same size gun so he is not giving anything up. The 10mm shooter if he decided to carry the 40sw permantely is stuck with a 45 framed gun and gives up concealability.
Pat
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
How about you don't ignore everything that is inconvenient to your a priori conviction that 10mm is "dying"?
More guns are being made in 10mm than were 5 years ago.
More 10mm ammo is being made by more companies than was 5 years go.
Objective facts, Pat. You don't have to like them, but there you go. Nobody here is claiming that 10mm with overtake .40 S&W as a mainstream caliber sold in mass quantities. But likewise, the evidence is also quite clear that 10mm isn't dying, either... and that the opposite is true.
More guns are being made in 10mm than were 5 years ago.
More 10mm ammo is being made by more companies than was 5 years go.
END
I like objective facts. But until I see data I can't accept this statment as fact. I see less guns being made today than their were in the past. We have lost a lot of 10mm's. As for ammo we lost Triton and picked up this new small Double Tap company. Net sum equal at best unitl you consider that Double Tap is more of a small scale reloading firm than a full fledged ammo company.
Pat
More 10mm ammo is being made by more companies than was 5 years go.
END
I like objective facts. But until I see data I can't accept this statment as fact. I see less guns being made today than their were in the past. We have lost a lot of 10mm's. As for ammo we lost Triton and picked up this new small Double Tap company. Net sum equal at best unitl you consider that Double Tap is more of a small scale reloading firm than a full fledged ammo company.
Pat
This is like the best of WWF! We see all kinds of figures being batted around as to the percentage of growth of the 10MM, any idea of where its going to level off?
Myself, I see the 10MM as a definate we're here to stay when Colt comes out with one on a 1911 chassis. They seem to be the most conservative as to introductions of anything new, and for good reason. The American buying public is as fickle as it gets, and when it comes to something new, they want old.
I passed up a Delta a few months back as I saw some peening on the frame rail, but I'd buy a new Delta in a heartbeat if they would make one. I've popped a couple of deer with my 45 at fairly close range-both under 50 yards, but I think it would be neat to take one at the opposite goal line!
Myself, I see the 10MM as a definate we're here to stay when Colt comes out with one on a 1911 chassis. They seem to be the most conservative as to introductions of anything new, and for good reason. The American buying public is as fickle as it gets, and when it comes to something new, they want old.
I passed up a Delta a few months back as I saw some peening on the frame rail, but I'd buy a new Delta in a heartbeat if they would make one. I've popped a couple of deer with my 45 at fairly close range-both under 50 yards, but I think it would be neat to take one at the opposite goal line!
355sigfan,
What might be helpful is if you could actually define what a "dead cartridge" is. Yes I included Dan Wesson and Mech Tech, but since you are obviously so much more experienced in the world of marketing maybe you can explain why a small company would risk investing money on chambering a gun (or conversion kit) for a caliber apparently nobody is buying? (As far as the Oly, I was refering to the 10mm AR carbine which, in my experience, has been far from trash.) I can just see the board room meetings at Glock, Smith & Wesson, Kimber, etc. with all the suits sitting there saying, "Hey, let's make a gun for a dead cartridge!" And I'm sure all those ammo companies are making the 10mm just to store in warehouses somewhere. Do you really believe your own line, or have you just backed yourself into a corner and don't know how to bow out gracefully?
PS - That wasn't me pissing down your leg. Maybe you should check your shorts.
What might be helpful is if you could actually define what a "dead cartridge" is. Yes I included Dan Wesson and Mech Tech, but since you are obviously so much more experienced in the world of marketing maybe you can explain why a small company would risk investing money on chambering a gun (or conversion kit) for a caliber apparently nobody is buying? (As far as the Oly, I was refering to the 10mm AR carbine which, in my experience, has been far from trash.) I can just see the board room meetings at Glock, Smith & Wesson, Kimber, etc. with all the suits sitting there saying, "Hey, let's make a gun for a dead cartridge!" And I'm sure all those ammo companies are making the 10mm just to store in warehouses somewhere. Do you really believe your own line, or have you just backed yourself into a corner and don't know how to bow out gracefully?
PS - That wasn't me pissing down your leg. Maybe you should check your shorts.
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
The data has already been provided, which you can confirm or deny if you aren't lazy. Well, let's see. 5 years ago was 1999. The Delta was already gone 3 years, and the S&W autos were gone too. Basically all you had for a factory guns were the Glock 20, 20C and 29. No 1911s from any major (or even minor) maker.
2004, add the Witness, Witness Compact, Witness Hunter, DW Razorback and Pointman Major, Kimber Stainless Target II, et. al., and keep the same Glock line. I don't know if the 610 was made in 1999, but it was re-introduced by S&W and is still listed as available.
Add Texas Ammo and Double Tap, and added loads from Pro Load (135gr Nosler) and Cor-Bon (135gr P-ball). CCI/Speer, Remington, Winchester, and Federal still sell 10mm ammo, too.
The entire Triton company crapped out... does that count against .45 ACP, .40 S&W and .357 Sig, too?
Triton had 1 10mm load. DT has 10.
The data has already been provided, which you can confirm or deny if you aren't lazy. Well, let's see. 5 years ago was 1999. The Delta was already gone 3 years, and the S&W autos were gone too. Basically all you had for a factory guns were the Glock 20, 20C and 29. No 1911s from any major (or even minor) maker.
END
I know you set the question up to exclude models that had been dropped. Why not ask for the last 10 years. The overall trend is for less guns. The only new guns are comming from fairly small producing companies.
Same goes for your ammo companies. Texas Ammo and Double Tap have more in common with my reloading set up in the garage than they do to Federal, Winchester or Remington.
The 10mm is not dead yet but its on its way there. It will probably stay around like the 41 mag for quite a while with a few loads and a gun or two. But you will not see any real new deveopements here.
SNIP
As far as the Oly, I was refering to the 10mm AR carbine
END
I am glad your happy. I had a very bad experience with Oly and their AR15 line. Also I see no use for a pistol caliber carbine. If you need a long gun you need a longgun caliber.
As far as bowing out gracefully. Hows this. Lets agree to disagree for now and see where the 10mm is in 10 years.
Pat
Pat
END
I know you set the question up to exclude models that had been dropped. Why not ask for the last 10 years. The overall trend is for less guns. The only new guns are comming from fairly small producing companies.
Same goes for your ammo companies. Texas Ammo and Double Tap have more in common with my reloading set up in the garage than they do to Federal, Winchester or Remington.
The 10mm is not dead yet but its on its way there. It will probably stay around like the 41 mag for quite a while with a few loads and a gun or two. But you will not see any real new deveopements here.
SNIP
As far as the Oly, I was refering to the 10mm AR carbine
END
I am glad your happy. I had a very bad experience with Oly and their AR15 line. Also I see no use for a pistol caliber carbine. If you need a long gun you need a longgun caliber.
As far as bowing out gracefully. Hows this. Lets agree to disagree for now and see where the 10mm is in 10 years.
Pat
Pat
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