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124 Xtreme load data info ?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by preacherJohn, Dec 4, 2017.

  1. preacherJohn

    preacherJohn Member

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    I'm getting ready to work up some new loads for 9mm with 124gr Xtreme FP copper plated bullets. I was really trying to use up the Rainier bullets I have left out the 1000 box with around 300 or so left, but after measuring quite a few that were ranging anywhere from .352-.354 I've started losing faith in them. This smaller size was causing neck issues in the case, and I've had problems I've never experienced before; but thanks to the forum I have become a lot more aware of reloading practices. I'm looking for some data on starting loads for this bullet and any data you might have concerning using them. The cases will be pretty much anything, and I have a variety of powders. I'm really interested in the COL of this particular bullet. I'll be using several different guns makes, and they all have their own preferences, but I need to start somewhere. Off the top of my head, I was using Universal for the past 9mm, but I also have Unique, WST, WSF, HP-38, HS-6, Bullseye, and a few others that I can't quote presently without walking down to the basement and looking above the bench.
     
  2. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    What's your goal for the ammo? Any particular power factor/velocity you're trying to hit? If you're just trying to get something that will be enjoyable to shoot and run the gun, faster powders with smaller charges will generally work well. I've loaded a lot of those projectiles over ZIP powder, as well as some over AA #2 and AA #5. I didn't find there to be any great sensitivity to powder - they all worked and shot well. That said, I am not a bullseye shooter and don't have a ransom rest, so I'm not the guy who can tell you whether a particular load is a 1.5" group at 15 yards versus a 2.0" group.
     
  3. RedLeg105

    RedLeg105 Member

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    I have loaded these bullets with 4.0 grains of Bullseye for general practice on paper targets. My C.O.L. was 1.13" for my Sig P320, but, without knowing what your pistol's chamber likes, Y.M.M.V. I would suggest that you start at 1.169" and plunk until you find the optimum C.O.L. for your pistol.
     
  4. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    The 1.169" COL seems a bit long for a FP 124gr bullet. I have not loaded these Xtreme bullets yet, but I normally load my 9mm FP bullets to around 1.065" COL, but I think most will load them around 1.075" COL. Berry's list the COL for their 124gr FP as 1.060". Be safe.
     
  5. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Re: overall length, note that this bullet (if it's the same one I have used a lot of) has a very square shoulder that can get quite stuck in the throat of a barrel with a short lede. Make very, very sure to plunk test this one when you're setting up the dies... you do not want to be a touch too long. It will tie up your gun pretty hard!
     
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  6. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    I've loaded Unique in my 9mm loads for some time, there are probably better powders for it, though. My next batch will probably be with W231 (your HP-38,) or Hodgdon has data for WSF as well.
     
  7. higgite

    higgite Member

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    I agree with Redleg105 to start with a dummy round with a long COL for plunk testing and decrease it until it passes the test. I do that to determine the max COL in my shortest chambered pistol and then seat the bullet .010-.020” deeper just to make sure it isn’t hitting the lands.

    Vaalpens’ COL of 1.065” happens to be exactly what I settled on, too. The max COL that an Xtreme 124gr FP will plunk in my 9mm CZ's barrel is 1.079”. ymmv
     
  8. Zendude
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    Zendude Member

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    I also load the Xtreme plated 124 RN with 4.0 grains of Bullseye at an OAL of 1.130. It's a mild load.
     
  9. preacherJohn

    preacherJohn Member

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    I'm loading these just for general target shooting at paper for decent groups. My wife & I usually shoot around 21' on the paper, 15-20yrds at steel targets, and 25yrds at a 2" pvc pipe I set on a fence post. The ladder being me mostly playing around. I don't shoot 9mm all that often, but she does. She has a Ruger LC9S, and I have a Sig Pro, Beretta 92FS, and a Taurus PT-111. She'll be stepping up to a XD-E sometime after the 1st of the year. I shoot mainly .45 acp, and recently this year 40 S&W which I carry in the MP Shield, and I also play around with a Sig P226 in 40. But occasionally I do pull out those 9's and knock the rust out of the barrels. So when you speak of COL, I should just keep the bullet from touching the barrel? I check the barrel "plunks" but never adjusted the COL after they past that test. I just don't want to get them too short for pressure reasons; hence this inquiry.
     
  10. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Look at your load book(s) and online data, pick a powder from your inventory that looks like it will do what you want, then start low and work up.
    Great, you are ready to go. You still don't say what velocity/power level though. Full power? Universal, WSF or HS-6. Plinkers at 85% power level? Bullseye or W-231. Real light? WST.
    No, seat them for function. And definitely don't try to have them a hair off the lands. If that has to be shorter than the OAL in the data, adjust for it.
     
  11. preacherJohn

    preacherJohn Member

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    My load books don't cover the copper plated Xtreme, but I was loading the 115gr Ranier copper HP's similar to the JHP as far as the COL went with less of a charge averaging 1050-1100 fps on my chrony with Universal. From what I've been reading on the forum, I've been loading them too long @ 1.125.

    I'm not familiar with the term "lands."
     
  12. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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  13. preacherJohn

    preacherJohn Member

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    OK, I just always called that rifling. So now I'm confused; should the bullet be short of the lands, or right at the lands for best efficiency? I know to read the load data, but it doesn't always have what I'm loading; in this instance the 124gr copperplated FP Xtreme bullet.
     
  14. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Some people loading for precision rifle shooting will try to be right at the lands. It's not super relevant for most pistol applications, except that, as I noted above, if you get too close/into the lands, then the bullet can get wedged into them. This can cause at least two different problems: 1) If that interference/jamming occurs "early" enough as the round goes into the chamber, it can prevent the cartridge from fully chambering (and firing); and 2) it can stick the gun in a locked closed position. It's possible to combine 1 & 2, and then you have a gun that can't fire and cannot be cleared without a great deal of force... which will then turn the pistol into a collet puller, and dump unburned powder into your action (not great).

    The point is that you need to load sufficiently short to avoid that sharp shoulder touching the lands. That will vary from barrel to barrel. Do the plunk-and-spin test during die set-up to make sure you are not jamming the bullet into the lands. If that leads to a shorter COAL than your load data, back off a tiny bit. As always, start low and work up.
     
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  15. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    You have to do some of the thinking yourself.

    From the X-Treme website.
    https://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-Load-Info-s/1952.htm
     
  16. preacherJohn

    preacherJohn Member

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    I've never had this issue happen to me before, nor have I heard about it, but I can see where this would be a major problem. Thanks for clearing this up for me.
     
  17. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    I've had it happen to me with some .45 ACP projectiles of a similar profile, and have seen a fair number of shooters tie up their guns this way at USPSA matches. I've had to really beat on a half dozen guns to get them unlocked after their owners/users couldn't physically manage it.
     
  18. Starter52

    Starter52 Member

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    I've had great luck with Xtreme's 124 grain plated bullets and 4.0 grains of Green Dot. I load them to 1.13" COL for all my 9mm guns. I've never had a jam or failure to feed with this load.
     
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  19. LUCKYDAWG13

    LUCKYDAWG13 Member

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    With the 124gr RN Xtreme's bullets I use 3.8 gr of Red Dot OAL 1.110
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  20. meesterdon

    meesterdon Member

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    They are a great projectile. 4 to 4.2 grains of W231 is a good load for me.
     
  21. Ruger 15151

    Ruger 15151 Member

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    I load that bullet with 5.2gr of BE-86 or 4.3grs of Sport Pistol at 1.090 COL. I am getting 1" 5 shot groups at 15 yards with an M&P Core stock 5 " barrel w/Red Dot. I'm using sands bags and elbows resting on a table.
     
  22. snakeye

    snakeye Member

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    People the OP is talking about Flat Point bullets it looks like several suggestions might be based on Round Nose bullets. We need to be careful when we make recommendations that we are on the same page.
     
  23. LUCKYDAWG13

    LUCKYDAWG13 Member

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    I did not see that good catch
     
  24. bds
    • Contributing Member

    bds Member

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    Yes, OP is using FP bullet which will get seated deeper than RN and thus require smaller powder charge than RN bullet.
    When I reload for multiple pistols/barrels, I use the OAL/COL that will work with all the barrels (especially for those with shorter leade or no leade). To determine this "working" OAL, I do the following:
    • First determine the shortest max OAL using the barrels - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...rel-find-a-max-o-a-l-with-your-bullet.506678/
    • Next starting with this max OAL, determine the shortest working OAL by feeding/chambering dummy rounds (no powder, no primer) from the magazine and releasing the slide without riding it. If the dummy rounds do not feed reliably, incrementally decrease the OAL by .005" until they do in all the pistols - This is your working OAL you want to use for the powder work up.
    • My quality control check for testing neck tension is measuring OAL before and after finished rounds are fed/chambered from the magazine. While I prefer no bullet setback, I will accept reduction of a few thousandths. If OAL reduction is more than several thousands (say more than .005") I will investigate why I have insufficient neck tension.
    Comparison picture below shows 124 gr RN on the left and FP on the right. While RN loaded to 1.130"-1.155" will work in most barrels, you need to use shorter OAL for FP bullet (essentially FP is RN with tip cut off and added to the base). While FP loaded to 1.060"-1.070" may work for most barrels, you may need to use shorter OAL like 1.040"-1.050" depending on the barrel's leade length and start angle of rifling.

    [​IMG]

    As Walkalong posted, X-Treme's regular plated bullets are rated to 1200 fps with .006"-.008" copper plating thickness and I have used lead load data with good results - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ng-at-25-50-yards.808446/page-3#post-10470195

    BTW, since they are sized .355" I would suggest using .377" taper crimp - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...re-sized-the-same.818806/page-2#post-10567453

    Hodgdon does not publish 9mm load data for WST as, depending on OAL/bullet seating depth, compressed charges are often needed for 125+ PF loads and pressure will get spikey at the top. Of the powders you have on hand, I would suggest using Bullseye, HP-38 (Same as W231) and WSF as powder charge levels in the case won't be compressed by deeper seated FP bullet base.

    Hodgdon publishes start charge of 3.9 gr for W231/HP-38 with Berry's Thick Plated HBRN (sized .356") loaded longer at 1.150" so I would suggest dropping the start charge to 3.6 gr for X-Treme FP bullet seated deeper in the case. I would test 3.6, 3.8 and 4.0 gr for my powder work up and see how the accuracy trend is - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

    Current Alliant published load data doesn't offer much help with 124 gr plated FP bullet but 2004 Alliant Load Data lists max charge of 4.9 gr for Bullseye with 125 gr Lead bullet (likely RN) at 1.150" and since Bullseye downloads well, I would use 4.0 gr as my start charge and go lower (so test 3.6, 3.8 and 4.0 gr) - http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=182147&d=1364769070

    FYI, my Bullseye powder testing with Berry's 124 gr HBRN-TP - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ow-base-rn-for-9mm.581070/page-3#post-7266869
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
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  25. Dudedog

    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    For my match/practice loads in 9mm I was loading the RMR 124gr Plated FPs with 4.5 gr of WSF, shoots well comes in right about 1030 FPS OAL was 1,.09
    I would load some at 4.5 and some at 4.7 and see how they shoot for you. (listed start charge is 4.7gr of WSF for a 124 FMJ so you should be ok with these charges and any OAl as long as it not real short.
    Guessing about 4.2-4.4gr of HP38 would also give you about 1030-1050 FPS which should make 125 PF and be noticbly lighter than factory ammo.
    Not Extremes bullets but for what it's worth
    5" 9mm 1911, mixed range brass, charges as thrown after setting measure, S+B SP
    This load was with the MPR JHPs a little shorter OAL than my FN load slightly faster about 25fps than the FN load at a longer OAL.
    String: 1
    Date: 9/17/2017
    Time: 11:52:56 AM
    Grains: 124
    Hi Vel: 1068
    Low Vel: 1040
    Ave Vel: 1055
    Ext Spread: 28
    Std Dev: 10
    RMR MPR JHP 4.4 WSF 1.065
    Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
    1058 131.192 308.173
    1050 130.2 303.53
    1059 131.316 308.756
    1040 128.96 297.776
    1068 132.432 314.026

    That's one thing nice about 9mm, almost any pistol powder will work.:)
    (N310 to Longshot --so that range covers #2 to #54 on one burn rate chart I have)
    If were using Universal and liked it with the 115s no reason not to give it a try with the 124s.
    I have found plated loads for me at least in 9mm seem to fall in the middle between lead and jacketed charges.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
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