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12GA Rifle From HELL--

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by hubel458, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2003
    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Got testing done with Rocky Mtn cases,
    small primers and 10gr of Blue Dot starter
    powder. The small primer and starter powder
    take the place of a BMG primer,
    that is in our cases cut back shorter
    for use in NEF and 1887 levergun.
    In NEF 3" Rocky Mtn brass starter powder
    and 140 gr of RE-15.Space filled up by card wad and felt wads, amount depending on how you seat
    the slug. About 1800 fps.
    In the 87 case cut to 2.4" the
    length that feeds from mag, 120 gr of RE-15,
    starter powder, and one thin .045 card wad.
    That's all it holds.Slug loaded flush.
    A little over 1600. With long barrels
    a couple hundred more for both guns.
    Will have plastic RE- 15 results in
    couple days.Ed.
     
  2. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Results of RE-15 testing in plastic cases.
    600 gr hardened Dixie slug and 10gr
    of Blue dot starter powder in both lengths.
    In Nef, 3 inch case is about 2.6 crimped,
    and 120 gr RE-15 max load. In 1887, 2.75 inch
    cases are about 2.35 crimped, 110 gr RE-15
    max load. In 2.75 case thats all it will
    hold,with card wad, in longer make up space with wads.The reason I'm checking plastic is so many shotgun reloading guys want more power for big game, and they are set up to
    load plastic. With starter powder- a caution.
    You must put starter in keeping case level,and the powder put in on top, must be put in slow
    so as not to push it away from primer.
    Greg Sappington clued me in on another powder that may do the job without starter powder
    and be slow enough to get velocities up
    without to much pressure. It's IMR SR-4759.
    Will have some in couple days.I made contact
    to get some of these loads pressure tested,
    to check my pressure calculations..Ed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2006
  3. madmike

    madmike Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2003
    Messages:
    2,095
    Location:
    In a well-equipped suburban bunker
    We're still paying attention. Keep it coming:)
     
  4. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
    Ignition is instant with regular primers.
    Don't need Blue Dot starter powder.
    All plastic cases so far.600 gr slug. I got a
    nice working roll crimper attachment
    for drill press for crimping slugs.
    That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp.
    In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded
    length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr.
    That's max as you must leave room for
    about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases
    may only hold 75 grains max due to
    the case construction.Powder is less dense
    than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel.
    In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6
    inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps.
    Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to
    case construction. Cushion is
    a half inch felt wad or equivalent.
    Both lengths start down and go up
    if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long.
    This powder being faster than RE-15 you must
    have a little cushion in the way of felt wads
    or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15
    a card wad works ok as powder started slower.
    The powder burning must build pressure
    to open crimp with out a high pressure spike.
    This bulky powder with reliable ignition
    is a winner.Next few weeks will get these
    pressure tested.Ed
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2006
  5. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

    Joined:
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    690
    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Tested IMR 4759 in 3" Rocky Mtn brass turned cases, in the NEF. Got max load of 105gr. 24" bbl, 600gr slug and 3/4 inch of
    felt wads for cushion.1900+ fps. Perfect ignition, clean
    burning and didn't expand cases to much, so resizing
    worked good.Ed
     
  6. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Now these loads are for only heavy barreled
    steel action guns like the NEF Ultra 12,
    or like my Savage with heavy barrel added.
    I am getting heavy barrel on the 87 and
    it will be long.There are some turn bolt
    locking lug pumpguns that would work
    with heavy barrels.There is a large
    12ga Tula bolt action, but it's not imported.
    This week if weather allows(no rain)
    I will be firing first test loads of my
    700HE long belted case.Ed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2006
  7. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    I want to see this scaled up to take
    700HE, 12ga FH, 700NE, 50bmg, Rob's 700, etc,
    or even 4bore, 8bore,20mm, 900HE.Anyone else
    interested jump in. Were going to give it
    a try. Ed.


    wic.jpg
     
  8. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
    loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
    all alloy steel construction, tested to
    about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
    site shows testing at the Italian proof house
    of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
    working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
    O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2006
  9. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    I get questions about whether the IMR 4759
    loads aren't to high pressure.Even for NEF.
    Well in Nef the REM factory Buckhammer
    slug load, expands the base of the case
    more than my 90gr, 4759 load. And I get
    more speed, in the same kind of
    Rem case.And pressure testing will tell us
    for sure what we have wrought..Ed.
     
  10. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Checking oh a Tarhunt 12ga bolt gun.
    They say they are strong. Will check to see
    how heavy the barrels are, and if they would
    work for our slower powder loads that have
    higher muzzle pressure.Ed.
     
  11. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

    Joined:
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    690
    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    I am working on
    scaling up falling block to handle
    700NE, 600Ne. 12ga FH, etc.We wanted to go to bigger 4bore size copy of Wickcliffe
    but the short hammer carried on the breech
    is too light to fire big primers.and hammer spring can't be made heavier either.So I am
    drawing one scaled up to 12ga and 700NE size.
    If used with our 12ga FH case will have to have
    primer bushing........
    SO- today the boy and I set up a mill.
    And we along with old machinist guy couple miles away will build a model scaled up with
    basic action and breech block designed to work with lever,toggle link. 1.25" barrel thread.

    And for the 4bore size falling block, the
    HSFB, 1.5 barrel thread, 2' wide action we
    will combine a little from Stevens 44 1/2,
    Ruger #1, Win 85, Sharps highpower falling
    block. The Wickcliff copies a lot in its breech
    from the Stevens.We will use a big hammer in the
    rear of action with heavy springs,
    to fire big primers. Half cock safety.Those
    we appropriated from other break actions and
    along with trigger and a lever are on
    the way from
    Gun Parts.Ed.
     
  12. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
    Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
    Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
    crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
    90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
    Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
    Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
    tested with transducer test ing setup,
    in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
    Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr, that
    I figured with my math would
    have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
    OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
    Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
    that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
    will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
    will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
    or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
    I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
    than our 4759 loads.Ed
     
  13. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    A 2.75 inch case with 80 gr of 4759, a thin card wad,
    a 3/8 cushion lubed felt wad, when crimped is about
    2.4 inches long, with 600gr Dixie slug. Based on
    pressures recorded in previous post for 3 inch case
    and 90gr of 4759, they will run about 13,400 psi,
    and work through modern guns.Another load tested with
    same bullet, 65gr of 4759, tested at same place
    was 11,800 psi and 1640 fps. So you don't have to put in my max loads, but go down a little and use in modern guns that
    are lighter than NEF so they don't kick so bad.But yet
    you can get fairly good energy levels for big game, 3300
    to 4000 ft lbs of energy.Ed
     
  14. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Here is picture of case fired 25 times,
    in my 700HE test barrel, to show you
    how cases stretch and thinout from
    repeated firings of high pressure loads.
    You can see where it is thinning just
    above the belt. Half of the loads were
    high pressure loads. Regular 10,000 ft
    lb loads wouldn't stretch cases at all.
    This is made from bmg brass like our
    12GA FH. 700 is belted and 12ga has rim.Ed

    25.jpg
     
  15. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted
    to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads.
    One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt
    handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough
    for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4"
    chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring
    converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use
    a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs.
    Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal
    are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side
    of bolt, and put extractor on right side.
    Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear
    extractor.A 788 Rem
    may work, at least with a 2.75" case.
    For repeater action, Open mag
    well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2
    12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed
    the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them,
    as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed.
     
  16. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    I have also found that the rear locking lug
    idea will work with an Enfield, and it would
    long enough for our long case with little
    work. Work long case as singleshot.
    Work as single stack repeater with 3" 12ga.
    The bolt handle base would be one lug, and is quite large, which would be stronger than
    goose guns built same way.The
    left locking lug woud get a bite out on
    its end if front was bored out to .900,
    tp allow feeding of 12ga case.
    But I found a way to add extra lug in the back by opening sight recess that is in rear bridge
    down through to bolt raceway, mill groove on left for lug to turn into that
    opening and mill square recess into bolt and add lug on left.Result 2.5 lugs, with enough
    strength to hold 30k plus loads easily.
    Ream out front of action. Barrel threads are
    as big as Savage, little more than Mauser.
    Face off front of bolt flat.Add pin in ejector
    cutout to support case opposite extractor.
    The original lugs will guide for feeding.
    Screw in heavy 12ga rifled barrel.By the way
    would work for 700NE,My 700HE by keeping
    pressures moderate. Could handle 600Ne,
    full pressure. Ed
     
  17. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    690
    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Other bolt guns with rear lugs that would be
    neat Mauser 12ga GEHA like conversions, would be
    Champlin and Golden Eagle 7000. That Champlin
    would make a real beautiful 12ga.
    Hell to give the French equal time............
    now watch out........... you could use
    a rear locking MAS.Its bolt is .800", a
    tenth of an inch bigger than most, including
    mauser, bolt actions. Best damn use for that
    gun that man could conjure up.With
    its larger bolt a real easy conversion,
    and with two rear lugs, it'll handle
    Magnum loads fine.Ed
     
  18. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
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    Here is picture of top part of the
    first scale-up model, next to smaller
    Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
    trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
    It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
    etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
    mill table to do the machining.Next machining
    will be the hole and slot down through the
    action for breech block and hammer to
    slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
    get some tooling.I had none when we set up
    vertical mill. Anyone with some surplus long
    end mills and R8 tooling, holders,big drills
    let me know. I need a bargain on some.Ed.

    su.jpg
     
  19. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
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    Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
    in a temperary chamber to see if
    hammer with beefed up spring would fire
    bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
    of the action so 12ga cases would feed
    into the action and temp chamber
    They fired ok. Bur the extra stiff spring
    makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
    on that.The original Wickcliffe
    action that we want to scale up is tall
    enough so that when breech block is
    lowered the block clears the bottom
    a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
    So in the scale up we need to just add a
    a little width for wider breech block,
    and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
    sides thick for strength.Ed
     
  20. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    In response to guys who can't find 4759
    we will test powders in the same speed range.
    Tested 2 fast stick powders, 4198 and 4227.
    Both didn't ignite good with small primers
    in plastic cases. Another I plan on trying
    VV110, when I find some. It is bulkier
    and slight chance may work like 4759. Ed
     
  21. spooney

    spooney Member

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    Location:
    Montana
    Any chance we could get some pictures of the gun while it is being fired? I want to see what this thing looks like.
     
  22. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Brinton,Mich.
    Will get a side view in next few weeks.
    Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr
    4759 and 460 grains of buckshot,
    14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef,
    pattern huge due to rifling, even with
    shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus,
    and went through 1/8 steel on end of
    stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy.
    In smoothbore be a real hairy load.
    With three 3.5" plastic cases with
    100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad,
    a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps
    in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as
    the 3" cases we pressure tested. I have NEF
    chamber lengthened for our longer
    brass case. A nice long barrel we'd
    have 2050 plus.Ed
     
  23. ajax

    ajax Member

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    Location:
    Fairview Heights,Illinois
    I want one just for giggles.
     
  24. DaveInFloweryBranchGA

    DaveInFloweryBranchGA Member

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    Ed,

    Awesome work fella.

    Regards,

    Dave
     
  25. proud2deviate

    proud2deviate Member

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Missouri
    I love this thread:)

    Any thoughts towards making a smooth bore for shot? Or maybe something with straight rifling? (thinking about something like a shoulder-mounted Claymore:evil: )
     

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