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12GA Rifle From HELL--

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by hubel458, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. wolf695

    wolf695 Member

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    I still love it! and the rounds! cant wait to hear more about it!
     
  2. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a
    Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size.
    Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone,
    so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass
    cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE
    3" brass. Really make a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to
    540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet
    mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that
    would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and
    turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE.
    And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep
    saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and
    slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other
    caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and
    cheaper if you cast your own.

    [​IMG]


    Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
    Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
    Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks...
    In back some of the cases and die sets.

    [​IMG]

    Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
    reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with
    the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels,
    1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
    to .980 inch at the muzzle. Setting up 4 more on Enfields
    through the winter. Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  3. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound Member

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    90
    Subbing to this thread

    Linked from HPFF
    (HiPoint Firearms Forums)
    Compelling Setups :D
    You are a true pioneer, Ed!
     
  4. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Thanks and we are having fun with 24ga ideas/research ..Finding lots of
    possibilities that overlap very well into big bore areas from a
    hardly used shotgun gauge.Ed
     
  5. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound Member

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    I was wondering if you had an application chart or links to such...

    So far the only shotguns I have are
    Mossberg 590 12g
    Mossberg 500 12g (JIC II)
    old break action 20g, 18.5" (H&R?)
    All smooth bore.

    Not afraid to spend a few buck$ on a heavy barrel shotgun.

    I'm interested in application/gauge/brass charts and a list of desirable brands
    of shotguns for modding and using the heavy loads. I have gathered that the
    20g would be compatible with the 585 stuff, thin sabot and so are the 12g's. (thick sabot)
    My son is very interested in deer hunting, here in Indiana.
    I approach all of my interests from a similar engineering viewpoint as presented
    here in your postings. Top Notch!
     
  6. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Thr Nef best value in heavy rifled barrels, 12 and 20 ga.
    The only chart is what is in the threads, nothing complicated.

    For 12ga use our sabot with a plastic seal and thin felt wad
    and .575" Minie bullets. With 82gr of IMR 4759. that is all
    3" case will hold.

    20ga use BPI CSD wadcup and use the larger diameter 54 cal Minie bullets
    like the Great plains 54 cal with 60 gr of 4759. 3" case & Wadcup has its
    own seal.

    I don't use a lot complicated wads and stuff that is needed with
    smaller amounts of fast shotgun powder. And our loads get
    better speed anyway with less case expansion.Ed
     
  7. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound Member

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    So these are for the shotguns I already have?

    Thx, I will look into the NEF!
    I see you mentioned it a LOT in the thread, now over 800 postings!
     
  8. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    The loads will work for modern guns with slug heft barrels.
    The term heft means heavy enough muzzles on modern guns, so that the
    longer pressure curve of the slower powder won't split the
    muzzle. No old steel or twist barrels.

    Rule of measure is .910" muzzle min OD on 12ga
    and .820" muzzle min OD on 20ga.

    the muzzle on NEF 12ga Ultra
    is much heavier but that helps with recoil and accuracy.Ed
     
  9. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
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    Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases
    but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than
    plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers.
    And case expand a lot and are harder to resize,
    But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits
    those cases and still chambers ok. Not a sloppy fit.

    So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length
    backbore job, of .850" bore or bigger you could use
    the Magtech brass and ,850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs.
    Now these .850" slugs won't go in a 12ga plastic case
    and chamber in regular 12ga chamber.

    Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length
    backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads
    under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit.
    The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr,
    and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum
    pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short
    case can hold.

    It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions.
    These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than
    others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns
    to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual
    12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to
    minimum specs so cases don't over expand.
    In the picture are 2 10ga slugs on right, like in the case,
    and 2 12ga jacketed slugs and one 12ga lead slug left.ED


    [​IMG]



    Here is the ytube URL again for our guy
    shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a
    pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  10. pazsint

    pazsint Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    13
    24 Ga slugging

    Don't want to hi-jack thread...but was wondering what I can load in a standard
    smoothbore shotgun barrel...I have an 24 Ga O/U and the 2 1/'2" brass hulls,..would like to hunt deer with it this fall.
    Dan
     
  11. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Your problem is lighter barrel. Our 24ga we show has real heavy barrel
    we put in, so you have use light loads. Our barrels use .585" Minies
    but your smooth barrels may be smaller.
    But different 58 Minies go down to .575". There are .577", .578". etc.

    You might check the lightest 58cal Minie bullets, like 350 to 440 gr
    for fit in barrel and case, and load them with starting load 16gr of
    Blue Dot, if extract easy go up a little,use seal/card and use wads
    so there is no airspace.. Ed
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2014
  12. Pete D.

    Pete D. Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
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    load

    Hubel: I have been experimenting with BPI's Thug Slug and two of your loads. using Alliant Steel and SR4759. Using RMC brass.
    Been using iron sights to test at just 50 yards.
    just yesterday though (my post from the Thug Slug thread on this forum):
    RMC brass hulls, one ounce Thug Slug, 40 grs. Steel
     
  13. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    Middle Tn
    This looks pleasant yet painful. You only live once right...a busted shoulder wouldn't be that bad, would it?
     
  14. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Thanks for compliment WK and thanks Pete for posting pic.

    I read the other thread you posted in.

    If the slug is less than 610gr try to get more 4759 in, it
    should tighten the group. That rifled barrel will take the loads we had
    lab tested safe with 90gr 4759 with 600gr, and any modern
    pump or auto with slug bbls will do that also. Greg and others who told
    me about 4759 years ago used pumps and autos.

    If the slug is heavier you can still go like 85gr 4759 for 700 gr slug.

    Same applies to Steel powder, if less than 600gr go to 45gr .
    If slug less than 500gr go to 50gr steelEd
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2014
  15. Pete D.

    Pete D. Member

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    thanks

    Hubel: Thanks for the advice and all of your testing. I will try 45 grains of Steel next. One ounce = 437.5 grains...so I can work up to 50 of Steel. About 4759.....I am using 75 grains now....more is going to push that slug up more in the case. The pic shows one now....how much more can I go, I wonder?
    I don't know how much tighter the group will get at 50 yards...there are four slugs through that lower hole. Once I get the scope centered, I will move out to 100 yards and use a proper rest for the gun.
    I am much liking that Thug Slug.
    [​IMG]
    Pete
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2014
  16. anothernewb

    anothernewb Member

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    West Central MN
    Awesome.

    and

    Ouch.
     
  17. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop
    the skirts from deforming, or wads getting pushed into
    the hollow base. I found that dense dow foam works
    good, I was using glue gun, but the dense foam is easier, cut
    plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make it a
    tight fit, use spot of glue inside, glue that is for foam....
    Trim off the foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug
    with foam pressed into the base..

    [​IMG]

    How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on
    top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga
    and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI
    24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great
    in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and
    wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed.
    The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with
    the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases,
    drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made.
    And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single
    shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage,
    even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII, bolt action JC Higgins. .

    [​IMG]

    Here is picture Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH, it is 3.5"
    model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it
    feeds/ejects through lengthened port 3" brass 24ga cases we
    made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the bolt for
    slightly longer stroke.Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  18. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals.
    Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded
    to match 577NE power.

    [​IMG]

    Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels
    as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys
    have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels.

    [​IMG]

    Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
    It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums.
    Built by his smith who has a reamer.
    Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three
    reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels,
    Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  19. pazsint

    pazsint Member

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    Jan 19, 2006
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    58 cal mininie as slugs in 24 ga shotgun

    Hubel.... I have an O/U 24 ga American Silver II, and been thinking about an 58 cal minnie ball in the 2 1/2" chedite plastic for a close range deer load.
    Questions ...>
    do you think I could do this safely with my thin tube barrels ? I have some 505 gr slugs from a 58 cal Zouave....how would do I check safe use fit of these or any other minnie in my tubes..? would I only shoot out of the modified barrel ?
    Is there any better shaped slug for a smooth bore to get some accuracy?
    Anyone else done this ?
     
  20. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Should use the lightest 58cal minie you can find, 350-400gr,
    probably the .575 inch work best in modified barrel.
    And 16gr blue dot starting load. Use seals and wads so no
    airspace, you will only know how accurate it is when you
    try it. You usually find round nose minies most accurate
    in a smooth barrel.Ed
     
  21. wolf695

    wolf695 Member

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    Nice job! send me a message, I got some more Ideas for you to try out!
     
  22. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
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    Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and 585HE
    and getting 585 cases made, as many as possible...

    We are now working a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture
    of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same
    bore barrels. Main use difference, 24ga FH easy setup in break
    actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.

    [​IMG]

    Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
    458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
    was pulled out and they wouldn't stay in tight. Sabot was a loose fit
    in 20ga, made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib,
    fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. Fits real tight to give
    good resistance for good ignition.

    [​IMG]

    Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol
    bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal ML. With 250 gr bullet in 585
    will go about mach 4.

    [​IMG]

    Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber
    coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being
    too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and
    we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  23. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
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    First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankunter with his Ruger #1.

    If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

    next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed

    [​IMG]


    I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
    extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
    one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
    than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
    on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  24. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Here is picture of 100 cases loaded with CEB solid nose bullets
    and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat
    or wide hollowpoint. .

    [​IMG]

    Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs,
    and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve
    sealing under what are heavier loads. The balls are .600" and
    315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells.

    [​IMG]

    I need a bunch of empty 3.5" 20ga plastic cases.


    Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
    Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like, usually
    set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
    size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid
    shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
    off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil,
    to our 585HE the strongest yet.

    The 577NE is an offshoot of 24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went
    eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
    cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
    577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,
    then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
    and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
    of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
    diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
    and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
    and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
    was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
    over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

    Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
    24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
    reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
    stamp the caseheads 24 ga.

    For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
    the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
    reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
    The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
    about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
    We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
    with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

    Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
    break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
    goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
    Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
    to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
    energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
    gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
    actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
    So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power.
    .Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

    Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
    and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed
     
  25. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super
    sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple
    middle bands on the CEB and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot,
    which uses .575" slugs. Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the
    sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a
    special made hollowed out long roll crimper.

    [​IMG]

    Getting some more interest in our 585HE.
    An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm
    PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5
    cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases
    being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes
    like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.

    And a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel could get 650gr
    spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using
    3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.
    Great possibilities for fun shooting. For tactical use in a place
    where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where
    steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads.

    [​IMG]

    I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the
    actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. .
    Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by
    cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on
    inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like
    Ruger 77 handle, the one on the right . Something even a novice
    like me can do.....

    [​IMG]

    A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr
    ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr
    to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back..
    The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE,
    for shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber,
    and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed

    [​IMG]
     

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