Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by hubel458, Jan 23, 2006.
AS per Bert---- Got to be prepared..Ed
There are guys on Castboolits forum experimenting with
locking on plastic bases securely on slugs.
Making their own front heavy ones for smoothbores.
Here is picture of our 585BB case next to long 585HE.Ed
Here is a helix driver seal we made by cutting base from helix driver
wadcup, good for fullbore roundballs that are too big to go in cup.
Best one to cut off is shortest `12ga one BPI has.
Here is picture of a 585HE made on a Stiller bolt action for guy in Canada.
It was made for the poster Spooksar on Africa Hunting and Accuratereloading,
by Corlanes/Rocky Mountain rifles, in Dawson Creek BC Canada, with a
Stiller action, Timney trigger. the stock is a blue/grey laminate. He imported
the barrel, cases, dies, etc.. from us, through Prophet River in Lloydminster AB.
That action similar to Lawton we had and neighbor got, that won the King Of The
2 Mile shoot at Whittington, with the 375 Lethal cartridge the neighbor made,
from our 585 brass. Made it full length case,.. It is big one on the right.
He made an 18 lb gun with McMillan target stock, a huge scope, tripod..
Nice thing is we don't need BMG action.
Fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, has worked with
Bertram and got the run of full length 12ga From Hell cases done.
Drawn 12ga long cases as strong as BMG brass with unbreakable rims.
Any wanting to get some, contact Bertram at the email -----
[email protected] ......
Some more on wildcat 375 Lethal.......
.375 Lethal Precision Arms LLC rifle shooting prototype solid 400gr Berger bullets.
Mitchell built this rifle himself using a McMillan A5 Super Mag stock, Rock Creek barrel,
Nightforce ATACR MOA scope, Phoenix Precision Bipod, and a Lethal Precision Arms
muzzle brake. Lawton Action. Lethal Precision his own gunsmith shop, will make
these target rifles for anyone into target shooting and long range hunting..
Remarkably, Mitchell nailed first- and second- shot hits at the 2477-yard target,
a full 1.4 miles away. It is windy out there, makes shooting hard with a time limit.
The prototype 400 grain Berger Bullets solid was superb, (G7 BC of 0.56 at 3000 fps).
Here is 585 HE in an Enfield, in a Choate Heavy Varmint Stock. These are super strong.
The butts of these can easily be weighted. Couple guys doing them....... Ed
Here is a picture of the 12ga FH brass case that Nathan
Vale had Bertrams make. Next to short plastic case.
Here is a picture of our 585BB headstamp. Perfect lettering
for our case as it came from production line,.
I like Hogue stocks, but they aren't made for singleshots.
We use singleshots for our 12ga FH and 585HE.
Here is picture of a NEF we set up for 24ga FH and we adapted
a Hogue 1300 Winchester Hogue to it. Looks a lot better, and
handles recoil easier than factory, Butt hollow, easy to add weight,
Here is picture of 585 case in the Lawton bolt, and the wildcat
375s and others made from our cases, work in bolt also. Ed
Our friend Brian from the far north went to Africa with his 24ga FH he did in
a NEF break action and got 3 nice buffs with it. Good job.
Our 585HE, 700HE and the great 12ga FH are now in the new COTW book
published in Oct, now out for sale,
We now have our target 375 HE cartridge, made by necking down our 585 HE.
A bunch of guys doing it, into the 2 mile shooting venues, We're making cases,
testing, reamer prints at reamer guys, we are getting guys going. The 2 mile
shoot last year really got the interest booming for 375 necked from our case,
How we size and seat 375 HE, one simple die, a 1" die, no monster dies needed
A die we can make with resize reamer from reamer guy, a regular die body,then
pass on to the next guy, those reamers can make a pile of dies.
I do primer work separate, not in the press. SO First with lock ring set, I size cases.
When coming back out of dies with case, we notice the case still well centered,
held straight, when it is down as far as the length of the 375 HE neck... IE
the sides and shoulder corner still supported tight.
So we put washer or another lock ring on, same thickness as neck length,
below original lock ring, screw down tight tight in press,
Dies had a 5/8 x 24 thread in top, had powder fill bushing and other stuff same thread,
reamed out from bottom to set bullet height, with ram, case,and bullet up,
After priming, loading in the powder charge, we carefully start(boat tail makes it easy)
bullet in case by hand, slide up in die, into holder, raise ram to to top, bullet seated
perfect. Die can have different thread in top as long as big enough to hold seating
bushing of some kind , that can be made from many items.
These target bullets held in by strong neck tension, no crimping needed, and notice
bullet point will get no marks or dents, fast, easy, no 380-500 buck special dies.
Bushing centering bullet on ogive is very accurate.
OVER 900 375HE cases piled behind presses getting done. About 600 on another
bench nearly ready. Small batches in shelves.And we will do more.
All 375 info, prints, specs, pictures, load data, etc, is public domain, worldwide,
for any target, hunting, etc, use..Ed
Here is picture of one of 3 buffs our guy from Canada got in
Africa with our 24ga FH he did on a NEF, in 2nd picture..............
Here is the neck die setup, with insert stems/plugs for the top that
are set in .020" steps to make our 375 HEs shown behind
from our 585HE cases. 900 cases behind and 600 on
another bench, mostly done, and 600 started elsewhere,
We also made a hydraulic form die, 375 HE test gun, starting with
lighter bullets, for example got 340 gr to 3700,
Will test up to 400gr We will find top speeds and powders needed
to get that, and have info where to get powders. Reamer prints are
at reamer guys, all prints and info is public domain... Ed
LOVE it! Would this work for boars?
Yep great for hogs, deer, bear, etc. Ed
Picture of fellows at Vestals Gunsmithing test firing 585 HE
they built for a guy. They got 750 gr to almost 2800 from
ultra short barrel, not a full load . A regular barrel would be
over 2900, 14000 ft lbs with full load..
Picture of our 375 HE cases, with little 378 WEA on left.
Middle case is with 330 gr, right case is 400gr bullet.
Here is picture of out 375HE testgun, in heavy t-hole stock.
So far 340 gr to 3700 and 360gr 3600.
Next 416 HE target case, these run through the hydro-die,
test gun done,will complete testing soon, to confirm specs.
When specs set, info will be sent to reamer guys
Soon will have 408 HE with specs set up also, for guys,
Smaller case 416s and 408s can be reamed out for
our bigger case .Ed
Anyone wanting to build 4 bore I got barrel to sell, 300 bucks,all
chambered for ours and Ken Owen's 4 bore case. Pm if interested.
And I know guy who has 4 bore brass cases and loading deal to sell.Ed
Here is picture of a brake on 12ga FH with real hot loaded
hollowbase lead slug, brake needed more clearance
for the expanding slug.
Here is the before and after of 375 HE cases
necked, 2 on left, and then formed in hydro die... Ed
Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are experimenting
with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR case.
Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.
Holds over 280 gr ball powder under bullet. The
3.6" case can hold about 250gr under bullet.. In picture,
1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 He, 4th 378 WEA.
416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG action,
470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target, singleshot 416..
Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough barrel
to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and be under 50 lbs.
A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit.
Here is picture of the 416 HSM fireformed once,
next to bmg case we make it from and as we
improve wildcatting process next few weeks
some specs may make small changes, now from
base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..
Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE
He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info.
We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted, ,
Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes,
PM or email. ph 989-644-5228..
Here are final specs for 416 HE.
Length 3.32", belt diameter ,655", base dia .635" ,
length base to to shoulder 2.860" , 30 deg shoulder.Ed
Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for 28ga and
410 ga and 32ga with brass cases and higher pressures than plastic cases.
They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with
our 585 case in the action.Guys can get Magtech brass cases or have
RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,
410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..
Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to original
BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still have
enough thickness in the sides to handle high pressure,
in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the wildcatting
work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.
We have lots of 585s, 375HEs, 416 HEs, 408 HEs.....
And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.
Here's comparison of 416 target cases, 1st 416 HE, have whole bunch.
Second is model of what I'd have made on medium machine, if I could,
the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of 230gr..
Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by wildcatting bmg
cases, And if had run long cases, make longer 375 HE necking down 416 . Ed..
The 12ga FH case now is in the new COTW book on
last page in the wildcat section, I think page 324.
They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that case....
The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one,
has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture,
on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr.. Ed..
Shooters talking more now; short, fat cases sticking, pockets not lasting as expected.
Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures are bad case proportions, too fast of
powders, and the debth of the bullet into the powder space, as shown in the picture below..
My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one, in longer freebore....Ed.
Holy hell that looks vicious.
Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case
made from our 585 HE big belted case. Ed
Here is picture of 375 HE left, 416 HE next, 416 HSM right..
Here, tentative specs, 416 HSM case we are doing from bmg brass,
A 375 HE, with Lawton action, bunch being done with those .....
Cowabunga! I want one.
A 585 HE ...shot with moderate heavy load......
Here is a 375 HE target gun set up, by Asteroid Precision...
Here is video of it being tested... And with a 350gr bullet about 3450-3475,
bolt opened easily with one finger...And he's just getting started
and is checking on better powder, Ed..
Here is recap simple setup to get faster loads with 12ga sabots
& slugs, Example using break actions...., reaming chamber
in a 12ga break action to 3.5" with a 3.5" 12ga reamer, that isn't
something needing special order, and use 3.5" plastic cases , or
get 3.5" brass cases made. With mag shotgun primers and
our slower powder loads you can get a quarter more speed,
which gives 50% more energy...
585 Hubel Express video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy load, gun little light.....
Another view of Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target gun,
Here is our 416 HSM we are developing next to 416 Barrett, Ed
Here in picture of the cases, are shown the steps in making
our 416 HSM case, from BMG brass,, Ed
We might have a company that is doing a bolt gun with an action
between BMG size and longer rifle actions used for 375 HE,
375 Lethal, and Cheytacs.. To use for our 416 HSM without
having to do extreme rebating of the rim.
Here is picture of 620 416 hsm cases half done. Done on cnc ,
that slimmed them down, cut new rim and extractor groove.
There are over 500 more at cnc getting done now, plus we have
1000s more bmg cases we make them from, when needed..
This case is public domain and if anyone wants to make
them we can give the steps involved...Ed.
For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416 easier to get powders to work with, less problems ..
Maybe building a target gun,don't have 375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....
We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
CEB and others will have bullets...CEB will be doing .416 in 450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr
Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as 585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer,
did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper, .021" per
side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k..
I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is
no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30.
And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or
more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually
hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking..
And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have
15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..
Here is a drawing depicting the layout of thick and thin sided cases,
like my 585/375/416 HE thin sided ones and the thick one in picture.
And my 585 case is not perfect, as where it transitions from the
heavier corner to the side it isn't gradual, so case separates there
shortening case life. There are others made that way including brand X.
The dotted line is what it should be............
Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are built thick sided and they
stick also for the folks, If a longer case with about 5 sq in of side surface sticks and
don't spring back, the coefficient of friction is about .01 then the pull needed to move
it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases with normal amount of slant to the sides.
Here is picture of six nyati and gibbs size cases sectioned.. the5th one is present 585 HE
and 6th is thick sided version. 1st 600 OK which essentially nyati basic case left straight, belt added
In the picture the nyati gma is one we built most of our first 585s on. Before we had factory run.
Reworking made it in size that is my 585 HE, but that brass had the sides of perfect thickness,
not too thick, but thin without sharp transition my new factory 585s had, they last forever as 585s......
Fourth one is an older nyati case I used to make about 10 of my 585s from,had thin sides, heavy corner
and sharp transition from the corner, tested 20 years ago, and they would separate after 4-6 hot loads
as 585s, my factory 585 with right powders, as a 585 will get 10 hot loads, and necked down to
416/375 4- 6 hot loads, right powders used, Moderate 577 equivalent, factory 585 at least 20 loads..Ed.
Guy sent thick sided 375 case, next size base diameter up from Nyati.He said,
'Yes I ran them in a ___________ rifle built by ____, the best I
could get was 44000 psi, any more and they were stuck''
Big bore guys. other forums over the years related that trex/african case in 585
size, thick sided cases, stuck when they loaded them over 45k psi.
Another just sent us, thick sided 375, long case, same base OD as our 585 HE,
416 HE, 375 HE, and Mitch's 375 Lethal, and the thick ones stuck over 45k psi.
Now you can fill those cases up, with ultra slow enough powder so they won't
stick, but powder is too slow for max speed. Might get a little more
speed, with thick sides case, but case got to be 4- 4.5 inches long..
. Anyone needing a sectioned case of the ones I made the first of my 585s from,
contact me, if they want to get a general idea of what case side thickness should
be, in Gibbs size cases on up to about trex and 375 VM size case diameter.
Here is pic of our 585 based case next to brand X and thick ones, both have
same sharp, thinner, corner, where transition from heavy angled corner, to the
side, the carbide draw rod could easily be reshaped with diamond wheel,
just by grinding off sharp transition corner. Then sides would be perfect.., .
Here is picture of 416 HE in a Choate target/varmint stock guy is doing,
using long action BSA U9 action.Setting in stock ready to do bedding..Ed
Here is picture of thick 375 case sent to me, with thick sided trex case, and our HE case,
The thick 375 case is .050" bigger OD base, but inside is no bigger than HE cases..
These thick sided 375s stuck when loaded over 44,000 psi....
Got guys asking and doing it, to do 416 HSM case for BMG actions, so leaving rim same,
as the original bmg rim, so will neck them, fire form to the longer shoulder, like the others.
Base a little bigger, Shoulder same diameter, same 30 degree slant, neck will be same..
Inside of case still has close to same shape, volumne within 3 % as the ones we slimmed down more.
Some want to use bmg actions and can't wait for intermediate actions, or already have bmg action.
And they are really getting interested in the complete line of 416 CEB bullets now being done
clear up to 550 gr...
So there will be 3 versions, one for actions .750" bolt, one for .800-.850" bolt,
And one for bigger bmg bolts. The ones for BMG called 416 HSM2 ..
Here is 416 HSM guy working in a Montana PH, in a heavy thumbhole target stock. Ed
Here is sectioned 585 HE case in the middle, we first made from
another case, years ago before we had factory run of brass and
it had perfect thickness on the sides and inside corrner.
We could fire them many times without sides thinning..
First case is factory run of our 585 HE, 3rd is case that is too
thick of sides and sticks at high pressures..
Pic of our factory run cases necked down to 375 and fired 4 times
at high pressure on the right, with unfired case on the left.
Our case is not perfect but does work...Ed
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