13 handgun kits bought at Allentown gun show spark Pa.-N.J. ‘ghost gun’ probe, attorneys general say

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Aim1, Oct 31, 2021.

  1. Aim1

    Aim1 Member

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  2. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    Why wouldn't they? NJ has had "Ghost guns" laws for few years now. Not to mention the other items that were illegal in his state of residence.
     
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  3. kwguy

    kwguy Member

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    I wonder if those kits were blocks of aluminum.
     
  4. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    ATF often sees purchase of as few as two identical guns as suspicion of buying for resale, dealing in firearms without a license (FFL).

    I might buy one handgun kit to make a gun for my own use. But thirteen? What's the point of that? Seriously.
     
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  5. reloaded_in_pa

    reloaded_in_pa Member

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    This might be a question for the legal experts here. If the seller knew the buyers home state had laws regarding the items, would he be responsible and charged with something?

    One other question. Is there a legal description of a "Assault weapon" ?
     
  6. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    357 Terms likes this.
  7. reloaded_in_pa

    reloaded_in_pa Member

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  8. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    I am perfectly legal to own my M1 Carbine and Yugo M70AB2 in Tennessee and take them to the local vintage and modern military matches.
    In New Jersey I would be an illegal firearms felon for owning and doing the same things.
     
  9. coloradokevin

    coloradokevin Member

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    As I read this story I talked about it with my wife. A comment I made was that it's amazing how fragmented our freedoms have become in this country. This is a cancer, and it's a cancer that's spreading rapidly. What I find disturbing - as a legal and law-abiding gun owner who has done things on the up-and-up in my state - is the realization that by the standards of several other American states I would have committed dozens of felonies... as someone who lives a "good" life, I'd be lumped in with armed robbers, murders, rapists, and other serious criminals just for enjoying gun ownership the way I legally do in my home state.

    My wife pointed out that it's also sad that some of the very places where freedom began in this country are the same places where freedom disappeared first. Truly sad.
     
  10. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    I don't understand why PA got involved.

    If they were "ghost guns", then they really weren't guns at all, just parts kits. If they're selling them in PA, then obviously they are legal there.

    You don't need to show ID or be a citizen of a state to buy parts. Once he crossed the line into NJ, another story.
     
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  11. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    Point me to the part where NJ would presume to supersede FOPA.
    I'd like to read through it.
     
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  12. stillquietvoice
    • Contributing Member

    stillquietvoice Contributing Member

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    My sentiments exactly. We've always had the right to make firearms for our own use.
     
  13. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Not really.
    First, ATF doesn't get told nor is a report required when a customer is transferred a hundred identical AR lowers+ a hundred Mossberg Shockwaves+ a Glock 17 + a Century AK+ a Palmetto AR rifle...........so two hundred something guns and ATF doesn't know squat. Only when ATF comes to do a compliance inspection would they see that transfer.....and then only if the inspection was within a year of the transfer date.

    When a licensed dealer transfers more than one handgun of any type to the same buyer in any five business day period, the dealer is required to submit a Multiple Sale report to ATF. Dealers in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California are required to do the same for Certain Rifles (semiauto, centerfire greater than .22 that accept a detachable magazine).

    I submit at least three of those forms every week AND NOTHING HAPPENS 99% of the time. The only customers who were contacted by ATF was the buyer who picked up ten pistols at one time when he returned home after being out of the US for several months. ATF did ask if he was a collector or reselling. He offered to show them his collection and they made note and have never bothered him since. And since that visit I've submitted at least six more Multiple Sale reports just on him. The other customer bought four AKS as gifts for family. The guys who were never contacted? The guy who bought eight Ruger Single Six .22's for his groomsman, father and new father in law.

    It's not just the number of firearms, its the type and frequency.
    If ATF paid a visit to every guy who picked up two pistols or two AK's or two AR rifles the same day from the same dealer they wouldn't have time to sell guns to the cartels.



    Freedom
     
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  14. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    No federal law currently prohibits such a sale.
    If the seller was shipping into a state where such sales are prohibited he violates that states law.

    Federally, none that currently applies.
    States may have their own definition.
     
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  15. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Google "New Jersey FOPA" and you'll get 71,000 hits.
     
  16. kwguy

    kwguy Member

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    “If ATF paid a visit to every guy who picked up two pistols or two AK's or two AR rifles the same day from the same dealer they wouldn't have time to sell guns to the cartels.“

    :rofl:
     
  17. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    Like your other example, I work out of the country and I've done so many multigun transfers its not even funny. Never been contacted by the BATFE or any other alphabet agency.
     
  18. coloradokevin

    coloradokevin Member

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    It's rare that this happens, but I literally laughed out loud at this part of your reply.
     
  19. Poper

    Poper Member

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    Why not? The only crime that could be committed is if he built completed weapons and then sold them without the license(s) required of a FFL. Otherwise, as best I can tell, there is no crime.
    We all have our preferences in our hobbies. I get into the weeds sometimes with my handloading for rifle cartridges. I alos have been know to go down much less travelled paths with my wood lathes. Maybe this guy is getting off on seeing how many different cartidges he can build an AR platformed gun in? Maybe he wants to build his entire home armory himself and he felt he got a great deal by buying in quantity? Until he has actually run affoul of the FFL licensing laws, I see only the suspicion that he might intend to violate a gun control law. Last I heard, suspicion of what you MIGHT do is not grounds for arrest and imprisonment.

    Yet.
     
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  20. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    See https://www.anjrpc.org/page/travel_with_firearms
    >
    > FOPA pre-empts state law and provides that if it is lawful for a traveler to possess firearms
    > at both the points of departure and destination, then it is lawful to transport firearms anywhere
    > in between during the course of travel – regardless of what local law says in the intervening states.
    >
    > In order for FOPA to apply, the firearm must be unloaded and neither the firearm nor any
    > ammunition being transported can be "readily accessible or directly accessible from the
    > passenger compartment of the transporting vehicle.” In vehicles without a trunk, the firearm
    > and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
    >

    Nothing written into NJ Law can supersede FOPA. In practice, the People's State of NJ can look
    for every loophole they can to be a royal PITA...
    ... but not in Law.
     
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  21. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    Well, either my son was misinformed by the dealer when he bought two Yugo M70AB2s on one 4473 (one for himself and one as a gift to me), and I was misinformed by the dealer when I bought two guns for my wife on one 4473 (a Taurus revolver and NEF shotgun), OR your experiences have been different from mine. Southwest Virginia and Upper East Tennessee at that time were focal points on cross border traffick as were California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and Old Mexico.

    Personally I would not push my luck appearing to buying guns not for personal use but for resell.
     
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  22. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    We know.
    It ain't exactly been a secret, but New Jersey has been thumbing its nose at FOPA since the passage of FOPA and the federal courts haven't seen fit to spank them.
    So go right ahead, travel through NJ with your guns, yell "Muh FOPA" when the state trooper seizes them and tell us about how much your attorney is billing you.
    But read this first: https://www.nj.com/news/2011/01/supreme_court_to_consider_whet.html#:~:text=Revell%20tried%20to%20sue%20Port,refused%20to%20consider%20his%20appeal.
     
  23. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    A gun dealer spouting nonsense? Nevah been done befo.
    First, it just doesn't happen.
    Second, ATF has to know about the transfer. In your son's case.....if he didn't buy from one of the border states, such sales aren't reported to ATF.
    Thirdly, no reporting when one handgun is sold.

    Either you and your son misunderstood or that dealer is a nitwit.






    I'm a gun dealer, of course my experiences are different. But no where in federal law or ATF regs would the dealer in your state or your sons require notification to ATF.


    Yet no such reporting requirements exist for VA or TN.


    If buying for yourself there isn't pushing of anything. ATF doesn't care.
    They do care if a nonlicensee is repeatedly buying and selling firearms with the intent to profit. They call that "engaging in the business".
     
  24. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Looks like conspiracy to commit and PA and NJ cooperated on the investigation.

    Pillus’ case stems from a September visit to an Allentown, Pennsylvania, gun show where he bought the 13 handgun kits, according to officials. Authorities said they tracked him to his Morris County, New Jersey, residence where they also confiscated an AR-15-style rifle without serial numbers, 13 9-millimeter handgun kits, two 30-round AR-15 magazines, along with handwritten handgun assembly instructions and firearm assembly tools, among other things.​
     
  25. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    OK...as usual, the article was quite lacking in meaningful details, like on what, exactly, was illegal about these "kits".

    As for "high capacity magazines"...I could care less about that. It's a charge to a totally malum prohibitum law (illegal only because the law says its illegal), as opposed to a malum in se law (illegal because the act itself is inherently bad or evil).

    What is illegal about these kits?

    And don't give me anything about the number a person bought. If a person is going to bring that up, then they're speculating on what a person MIGHT do with them and that's as off base as speculating why a person would buy a single such kit. Or, come down to it, why a person would buy ANY gun, period.

    If there's nothing illegal about the kits themselves (as in they're all compliant with the arbitrary "80%" rule and such), then what bad about them?
     
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