Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

17,148 guns reported missing in 2005

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Car Knocker, May 12, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    3,809
    Location:
    Salt Lake City, UT
    From the January, 2007, FFL Newsletter received today:
    That's a lot of inventory shrinkage!
     
  2. mlandman

    mlandman Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    214
    Location:
    S. Fla
    Umm...that averages to almost 36 per FFL. If the 312 that reported less than 10 guns lost, can't find an average of 8 apiece :uhoh: , the remaining bunch lost over 108 guns each!!! :what: How do you lose 2 guns per week, all year long?:what:
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2007
  3. MikeB

    MikeB Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2003
    Messages:
    383
    Location:
    Northeast PA
    Not really. Considering there were approx 4.7 million new guns manufactured or imported for sale during 2005, I don't think 18,000 missing in a single year are really all that many. Numbers can be fairly meaningless without context. I'm actually surprised the number isn't higher. After all, we are dealing with humans and computers to track all those guns, and neither are infallible.
     
  4. The Deer Hunter

    The Deer Hunter Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    2,801
    Location:
    Chairborne HQ, MA :(
    Now are they just guns which the sellers lost the 4473's to or forgot to do paperwork for? Or just lost or stolen guns?


    Because if thats a real high number.

    BTW, Welcome to The High Road GotGuns :)
     
  5. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    3,809
    Location:
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Well, since the FFLs reported them as missing after getting the paperwork sorted out, I'd venture to guess they were missing/stolen.
     
  6. Kali Endgame

    Kali Endgame member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2006
    Messages:
    516
    Location:
    In a constant state of confusion.
    Well, I'm going to do my part and try to find them. Yippee, a gunny Easter egg hunt.
     
  7. FCFC

    FCFC Has Never Owned a Gun

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2007
    Messages:
    649
    Of course 17,148 lost guns is a high number. The 4.7 million number is not really relevant to the perfectly valid context of: all guns lost in a year (by all the losers). In this case the 477 FFLs cited as losing guns are a huge problem since their performance indicates incompetence, lack of caring or both.

    I wouldn't have thought the BATF would put up with such nonsense. I thought it was tough about those kinds of things. If the number of guns by FFLs is really 17,148 in one year, it is a serious problem. *** happened to them?
     
  8. .cheese.

    .cheese. Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    3,808
    any possibility that this number is do to poor inventory records resulting in "guns on paper" - and therefore much fewer guns were actually missing physically?

    The number seems awfully high.
     
  9. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    795
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Not to forget: the whole system of recording the sale of new firearms is just another abridgement of inherent, God-given rights. We do not (yet) blame the knives used by slasher-killers and require merchants to collect a ton of information about each pocketknife sold.

    Four tenths of one percent margin of error? I'd say that's pretty damned good for humans. Sure beats the IRS' and BATFE's record-keeping accuracy by a few powers of ten.

    Blame the criminal, not the tool.
     
  10. FCFC

    FCFC Has Never Owned a Gun

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2007
    Messages:
    649
    So, you're saying that losing 17,148 guns in a year by 477 FFLs is good performance?

    And your criterion is what?
     
  11. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    795
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Equality under the law.

    When the BATFE and IRS can't keep their own crap in line, then expect nothing short of perfection of the peasants, I call foul. For just one out of hundreds (if not thousands) of such incidents, read up on the attempted railroading Red's Trading Post.

    Frankly, I don't care where 18,000 firearms went. They are not going to do anything bad by themselves. The criminals which may misuse them should be locked up in prison, not out on parole because there is no room to keep them behind bars due to, among other things, mandatory minimum sentences for people who like to consume Evil Drugs as opposed to Approved Drugs (nicotine, alcohol, caffeine, etc.).
     
  12. FCFC

    FCFC Has Never Owned a Gun

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2007
    Messages:
    649
    Gotcha. The old, "I don't care" criterion.

    Works on any an all pesky problems...

    Simplifies life quite nicely, don't it??? :)
     
  13. wally

    wally Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2004
    Messages:
    12,137
    Location:
    Houston, Tx
    What happened to them? They were stolen!

    I see some blame the victim mentality here. Theft of a gun from an FFL is a Federal Felony, where is the FBI/BATFE effort to solve these crimes? Same place it is on Idenity Theft -- talk to us when your *losses* exceed $100,000!

    --wally.

    Edit: FCFC, new member, I smell a troll.
     
  14. elrod

    elrod Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    697
    Location:
    Heart of the Heart of Dixie
    You almost have to believe in a combination of thiefts, careless paperwork, and illegal sales to account for the missing guns. Locally, I know of one dealer closed down for missing inventory. According to local LEO sources, there was even some class III stuff gone!!
     
  15. FCFC

    FCFC Has Never Owned a Gun

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2007
    Messages:
    649
    Don't worry, the extra guns out on the street in your area "are not going to do anything bad by themselves." :uhoh:


    Don't worry, be happy. :)

    Just use the "I don't care" criterion as displayed above and everything will be just fine...
     
  16. MinnMooney

    MinnMooney Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2007
    Messages:
    1,608
    Location:
    east-central Minnesota
    Time for a little math.

    If 135 FFL's lost 10 or more then the other 342 FFL's lost 9 or fewer. Let's just put that figure at 9 each so that's 3078. That leaves 14,070 for the 135 very sloppy/careless FFL's OR about 104 guns (IN ONE YEAR!). I don't care what kind of businessman you are......... THAT'S SLOPPY!!!
    Someone said, "What happened to them? They were stolen!
    I see some blame the victim mentality here." So what?! He'd still have them on inventory and would have reported them as "Stolen" so they are not a "discrepancy". They are just lousy business people.
    If Target has a "discrepancy" of 108 barbies at the end of the year, it's written off to employee theft, shoplifting or whatever..... but they're not regulated by the BATF. When they deal in guns under the rules of a license then that license can be witheld or revoked. Same goes for a bar or liquor store.
    No one is "Blaming the victim". If they're that bad at their business then get a different business........... sell Barbies.
     
  17. deadin

    deadin Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2005
    Messages:
    2,101
    Location:
    Ocean Shores, WA
    All I can ask of the "apologists" that are saying "well, in the big picture it's nothing", is how many times is it "OK" for a delivery room nurse to drop a baby, or how many times would they accept a mechanics excuse that "I only screw up a repair job every once in a while. Too bad it was yours, but TS, it's within the margin of error."
     
  18. FCFC

    FCFC Has Never Owned a Gun

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2007
    Messages:
    649
    Just keep them away from some of the Barbie accessories...

    [​IMG]
     
  19. MinnMooney

    MinnMooney Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2007
    Messages:
    1,608
    Location:
    east-central Minnesota
    Hey, "fcfc", is that a real AR-15 or an airsoft? My daughter might even go to the range with me if'n I dolled one up like that!
     
  20. akodo

    akodo Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    2,778

    wait...that's exactly what we are talking about.

    Nurses DO drop babies, doctors DO botch up procedures, and only the absolute worse ones, where doctors knowingly take shortcuts, work drunk, or whatever actually become malpractice cases...and then only if the patient learns of it.

    Snip a little too far, cutting a nerve making a leg unusable, well, that's just a risk you take with any surgery.


    Now, onto guns. I wonder how many of these are "I ordered 50 different guns from vendor X for my gunshop, when UPS showed up, and we received the product into inventory over the next few days, it turns out we only got 48!

    I work in logistics for an electronics chain, one of the biggest 2 sources of losss before it gets on the floor (where shoplifting is the biggest source...which I don't think happens at many gunstores) is #1 we break it moving it around, #2 Vendor said they sent us 100, but the truck only had 96.

    we try and catch #2 before it enters our inventory, but we don't always succeed. Sometimes people are in a hurry, and after having all their other paperwork so far that day match quantity claimed with quantity received, they just okay it quick without a careful count.

    We had it for a while where we were getting rush shipped some laptops pretty much a thousand a week from oversees, so it was coming into minneapolis international airport. They would come in pallets of 100, 25 per layer standing on end, 4 layers, covered in shrinkwrap, banding, cornercards, international flight labeling, etc.

    Except that frquently in the middle of the pallet we would find boxes that were opened and the merchandise pulled out.

    It got so bad that we now institute a policy of every single laptop unit is restacked onto pallets we have in house, specially colored to indicate they are ours, so we can catch the empty boxes before we put them into inventory.

    If an international package going through an airport where we are supposed to have 9-11 type security is being stolen, how hard is it for the UPS guy who comes and picks the guns up at the manufacturers to 'loose' a few for the right price?
     
  21. ATW525

    ATW525 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    284
    Location:
    Colebrook, NH
    As far as I'm aware FFLs are required to log in each and every firearm they receive. They don't just simply record that they've got 36 more Glock's in a shipment, they have to record each and every seriel number in their log book. I find the scenario of "Well, we only got 33 Glocks, so make up seriel numbers for the missing three" to be highly unlikely.
     
  22. deadin

    deadin Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2005
    Messages:
    2,101
    Location:
    Ocean Shores, WA
    So your basic "apologist" stance is that all of these examples are "OK"?
    How many botched operations is a doctor allowed before his license is pulled?
    How much inventory can be lost before it becomes unbearable?
    Yes, SH, but we don't have to stand for it.
    Any gunshop that "loses" and average of 40+ gun a year (regardless of the reason and only admits to it when audited) doesn't deserve to have a license.
     
  23. MikeB

    MikeB Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2003
    Messages:
    383
    Location:
    Northeast PA
    It isn't ok, but to just point out the 18,000 missing weapons, without putting it into context of just how small a number that actually is, is irresponsible and the type of reporting that the Brady Campaign would do. Those 447 FFL's should be investigated. The real story here though isn't just that we have some FFL's that may not be operating properly, but the number who are.

    To look at it another way. There were over 54,000 FFL's in 2005. So that 54,000/447. So less than 8/10 of a single percent of FFL's had missing inventory.

    Oops, that's 477/54000 or .00883. Still less than 9/10 of one percent.
     
  24. ATW525

    ATW525 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    284
    Location:
    Colebrook, NH
    Were all 54,000 FFLs actually audited, or were only a fraction chosen for ATF scrutiny? The snippet we've been provided with doesn't say.
     
  25. wally

    wally Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2004
    Messages:
    12,137
    Location:
    Houston, Tx
    OT, but not really true. "Innovative" lawyers like John Edwards take cases on spec to sue over normal complications from medical treatment, if they then win a few cases or get some settlements they shop around their services to anyone with this bad luck. Its how Edwards became a billionaire - as a newbie took an obstrectics case no one else at his firm would touch, won to everyone's astonishment, and now this statistically not so uncommon complication is an immediate settlement on any Doc's insurance who is unfortunate enough to have such a patient. This is why OB/GYN and Anesthesiologist fees are so high -- their insurance premiums are outrageous. Birth defects of some sort are a couple of percent of live births, general anesthesia would kill a fraction of a percent of healthy people if done to them with no other procedure.

    --wally.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page