1849 Pocket .31 Italian Cased Set

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expat_alaska

expat_alaska

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I found this on GB yesterday. It is listed as a "Replica 1898 Pocket Pistol Set In Felt Lined Wooden Case".

This is a consignment sale. I asked if he had any other info about them and he replied in the negative, not even serial numbers.

IMO, they are not early ASM revolver because the trigger guard shoulders are too pronounced. There are no evident Italian proofmarks nor a datecode on the revolvers from the photos.

They are not Colt 2nd Gen, 3rd Gen, et al, revolvers as there are no COLTS PATENT stamps on the left side of the frame, and all 2nd Gen/3rd Gen Pocket revolvers were not historically correct in that they had the short frame/short forcing cone like the original 1848 Pocket revolvers. (I have learned a great deal from Eric Deaton's recent book about Colt revolvers.)

Evidently, the original owner thought highly enough of them to procure faux ivory grips with inlaid medallions, one being a bison and the other some sort of banner. The gripframes aredefinitely shaped differently, so probably two different revolvers.

I would surely love for anyone to weigh in on these guns insofar as to what they are with the scant amount of photos provided. The starting bid is $575 but the revolvers look to be in very nice shape, and the case, while modern, is in very good shape, both externally and internally.

If we ever get the second FedGov stimulus check and it does not sell by then, I am truly think about bidding on it.

Regards,

Jim

Replica 1898 Pocket Pistol Set In Felt lined Wooden Case - Black Powder Pistols & Muzzleloader Pistols at GunBroker.com : 887460714

1849-Pocket-Italian-Cased-Set-001.jpg

1849-Pocket-Italian-Cased-Set-002.jpg
 
Hi Jim,
They piqued my interest as well.
He responded to my inquiry as he did to yours but added that he thought they might be kit guns.
The early slim trigger guard ASM's ended in 1985 according to the EMF catalog.
The 1986 EMF catalog has .31 Pockets and Wells Fargoes with thick trigger guard rear ends and the Baby Dragoon is no longer offered by them.
While EMF offered Kits for the 1851's and 1860's, they did not offer any of the .31 caliber ASM's in Kit form.
Early Uberti pockets had many of the markings hidden by the front of the trigger guard so that may be what these are.
The case is unique too and I wonder if it was hand made for these?
 
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I like them, Not a bad price, 250 each would be a good deal on the guns. the mold has to be worth 25 and the horn has to be worth 25 and then 25 for the case. but where did they get that 1898 date??
 
indy1919a4 said:
I like them, Not a bad price, 250 each would be a good deal on the guns. the mold has to be worth 25 and the horn has to be worth 25 and then 25 for the case. but where did they get that 1898 date??
Click to expand...

As this is a consignment item, I don't think the seller has a clue. Just my opinion.

Ephraim Kibbey said:
Hi Jim, They piqued my interest as well. He responded to my inquiry as he did to you but added that he thought they might be kit guns.
If so, the maker has done great work on them. The case is unique too and I wonder if it was hand made for these?
Click to expand...

If they are kit guns, they are very well finished, much more so than I have ever seen with kit guns. If so, kudos to the guy who did them.

I am curious about the case, also. It is clearly not a hand-me-down looking at the condition and the way the revolvers fit. IMO, that is a product of love from the originator.

Come on stimulus check! :)

Regards,

Jim
 
1KPerDay said:
Get them! Looks like a heck of a deal.
Click to expand...

IMO, somebody in our fraternity needs to get them, "mad money" willing, so we can all figure out what they are.

indy1919a4 said:
I like them, Not a bad price, 250 each would be a good deal on the guns. the mold has to be worth 25 and the horn has to be worth 25 and then 25 for the case.
Click to expand...

I totally agree, except for your value of the case. $25??. More like $225 or more. Do yourself a favor and look up Bill's Cases. Bill Cases - Fine Quality Engraving of Guns (billscases.com)

Has anyone looked at the current price for Uberti Pocket .31 revolvers lately, if available? This is, IMO, quite a good deal, pandemic prices notwithstanding.

Regards,

Jim
 
expat_alaska said:
IMO, somebody in our fraternity needs to get them, "mad money" willing, so we can all figure out what they are.



I totally agree, except for your value of the case. $25??. More like $225 or more. Do yourself a favor and look up Bill's Cases. Bill Cases - Fine Quality Engraving of Guns (billscases.com)

Has anyone looked at the current price for Uberti Pocket .31 revolvers lately, if available? This is, IMO, quite a good deal, pandemic prices notwithstanding.

Regards,

Jim
Click to expand...


Hey I am cheap and a bargain hunter :)
 
1KPerDay said:
Yeah I wondered about that. I don’t know if any repros with 6-shot cylinders do you?
Click to expand...

ASM did in the 70's.The dead giveaway that they are ASMs is the sloped shoulders at the rear of the trigger guard. One photo shows a datecode AD/1978. The barrels are 4" part round/part octagon, and have the short frame/short forcing cone of the 1848 Model.

The original Colt 1849 Pocket 6-shot revolvers all had 6" octagon barrels (Flayderman).

ASM-1849-Pocket-31-6-shot-001.jpg

ASM-1849-Pocket-31-6-shot-002.jpg

ASM-1849-Pocket-31-6-shot-004.jpg

ASM-1849-Pocket-31-6-shot-005.jpg

Regards,

Jim
 
Back to the original post.

I am very interested in this cased set, but currently have not enough "mad money" to buy/bid. If the next $600 stimulus check comes to fruition, I will have enough funds (along with some stash) to go for it. The auction ends in 4 days (no current bids), but I have written to the seller that I am interested, and if no one bids on it I will give him his asking start bid in January.

Here is my proposition with you fellers. If someone here wants to bid on it, fine and dandy. I just would like to not get into a bidding war with anyone here as I would like to see it go as cheaply as possible, so anyone who has an interest pays the least amount possible.

I am not a big fan of Pocket revolvers, but this set really intrigues me. That said, if I obtain it, after thoroughly examining it for my replica historical notes and photos, I will offer it for sale for exactly what I have into it. No profit for me involved whatsoever. If I get it I will post my finding here and on The Black Powder Revolver Collecting Forum - Index (blackpowdersmoke.com) for historical purposes.

I am very interested in any thoughts/responses. With pandemic prices rearing their ugly heads and the Italian factories not producing much of anything these days, it is maybe something to think about.

Regards,

Jim
 
expat_alaska said:
ASM did in the 70's.The dead giveaway that they are ASMs is the sloped shoulders at the rear of the trigger guard. One photo shows a datecode AD/1978. The barrels are 4" part round/part octagon, and have the short frame/short forcing cone of the 1848 Model.

The original Colt 1849 Pocket 6-shot revolvers all had 6" octagon barrels (Flayderman).

View attachment 963887

View attachment 963884

View attachment 963885

View attachment 963886

Regards,

Jim
Click to expand...

Six shot Pocket models came with 4, 5, and 6 inch barrels, Additionally, they accounted for about 1/3 if the pocket models sold. (Shumaker) Pictured are 4, 5, and 6 inch barreled six shot pocket models with a 1st gen 1851 Navy Pocket Comparison (2).JPG
 
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expat_alaska said:
IMO, somebody in our fraternity needs to get them, "mad money" willing, so we can all figure out what they are.



I totally agree, except for your value of the case. $25??. More like $225 or more. Do yourself a favor and look up Bill's Cases. Bill Cases - Fine Quality Engraving of Guns (billscases.com)

Has anyone looked at the current price for Uberti Pocket .31 revolvers lately, if available? This is, IMO, quite a good deal, pandemic prices notwithstanding.

Regards,

Jim
Click to expand...
I bought my new Uberti Pocket .31 this year.
Yep, they run about $350 EACH now.
Two of them. A nice case. A mold. A flask. That combo does not come cheap.
Buying them all separately would easily cost over $1,000 new.

My question is what are the grips made of?
If they're bone, ivory, or elk stag, there's another significant addition to the cost.
 
I was thinking about the "1898" date and wonder if someone read a "4" as a "9?"
That would still be incorrect as "1848" since they have stagecoach holdup cylinder scenes instead of the earlier Texas Ranger/Comanche fight scene but it is a lot closer than the turn of the century!

expat_alaska said:
If the next $600 stimulus check comes to fruition, I will have enough funds (along with some stash) to go for it.
Click to expand...
Jim, I too was thinking about my stimulus check (I'll believe it when it clears my bank) but more along your line of thinking as research rather than possession unless they really turned out to be ASM, which I doubt. If it gets higher than $600 and you are interested in going higher, maybe a partnership can be arranged?! I will also hold off bidding. I look forward to your report. I'll PM you my phone number.
 
Since someone has put a bid in on this set, I have offered to take over for Expat_Alaska to see if we can get this set to examine and he has agreed. If I am successful, I'll report back as soon as I take shipment. If it is not ASM, I will offer it first to those who expressed an interest above and then put it on our classified at my cost plus shipping! Keep your fingers crossed it doesn't go too high!
 
Ephraim Kibbey said:
Since someone has put a bid in on this set, I have offered to take over for Expat_Alaska to see if we can get this set to examine and he has agreed. If I am successful, I'll report back as soon as I take shipment. If it is not ASM, I will offer it first to those who expressed an interest above and then put it on our classified at my cost plus shipping! Keep your fingers crossed it doesn't go too high!
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Well crud. I was going to bid on them.
 
I just tried to contact the seller to pay but they were not in so I left them a message and asked them to let me know when I can give them my charge info! As mentioned above, if they are not ASM's I will offer them first to 1KPerDay and then dickydalton at my cost plus S/H to them since they agreed not to bid. Jim would have had first shot but he said he is just interested in information and photos. If they are not interested I will put them on the THR Black Powder Classifieds and then on Gun Broker (plus their commission.) If they do not go as a set, I am pretty sure I can get my money (or most of it) back by piecing the set out on Gun Broker and Ebay. My winning bid was $755, S/H to me $25, 3% CC fee $23.40 so I will have $803.40 in them. That's $300 per revolver and $200 for the case and accessories. I told Jim my limit was $800!!! I HATE BIDDING WARS!
 
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