1851 Navy & beginner

[whughett]

I do use felt wads, but I cant help but thinks that its all a marketing ploy. I mean where in heck did a Mississippi River Gambler, A Cowboy, A Gun Slinger or a Miner, A Farmer or a Teamster on the Ghisom Trail get felt wads or filler for that matter. Wonder if Old Bill had his old 51 loaded up with felt wads and filler when he popped Tuitt at 225 feet away down Main St..

 

[1861]

Wonder if Old Bill had his old 51 loaded up with felt wads and filler when he popped Tuitt at 225 feet away down Main St..

His mother prepared a small box of wads for him that morning.

 

[Kaeto]

For the most part they didn't bother with having lubrication to soften the powder fouling.

 

[rodwha]

Indeed. They had additional pistols.

 

[whughett]

Well tomorrow is range day, I'm going to start dry, no wads, and stay dry until I see some difference, accuracy or otherwise. I'll shoot the 1860, 30 grains 3f .454 round ball. A normal session is 48 rounds, eight cylinders. Distance is 12 yards.

His mother prepared a small box of wads for him that morning.

.LMAO

 

[Sistema1927]

You shooting something shaving lead,? Over 50 years of revolver shooting nothing has ever drawn blood, sure have felt little debris now and again and, with auto loaders, more that one shell casing popped off my forehead and glasses, but no blood. I am assuming a poorly timed black powder revolver will shave lead same as any other revolver. Just curious.

Nope, not shaving. Stuff flying back from down range, powder particles, "idjits" next to you at eh range, etc. Or maybe I just bleed easier than you.

 

[1861]

Today I visited the ONLY master gunsmith in my city. He's quite young and he seems really knowledgeable, smart, honest, friendly and willing to help. He said that he constantly gets the amount of work 5 times larger than he's able to handle. Since he's the only one, and many men own hunting rifles in my region. Anyway, I think that installing a cap rake for him would be a piece of cake. But tell me please - does cap rake eliminates jams 100%, or it only reduces the possibility of pieces falling behind the hammer and into the inner works? Did anyone experienced such jams WITH a cap rake installed?

Still no news about police permit... screwdrivers are on their way, both Grace and Brownells, I expect them soon... I have found were to get wool felt... a friend will get me pieces of hard wood for punching out the wedge, I don't want to use brass.

 

[rodwha]

I doubt it would reduce it to 0%. But caps that don't fall off won't get stuck in the works.

Filing the hammer costs nothing if you have a file and should do what the cap rake does (keeping the caps from being pulled from the nipples).

 

[J-Bar]

But tell me please - does cap rake eliminates jams 100%, or it only reduces the possibility of pieces falling behind the hammer and into the inner works? Did anyone experienced such jams WITH a cap rake installed?

I think with an open top revolver, jams can be reduced dramatically, but I don't know of anything that will abso-bloomin'-lutely guarantee 100% jam-free shooting. If you want perfection, you will get close with a Ruger Old Army percussion revolver, and maybe get a jam every 5 years or so. A ROA will cost 5 or 6 times what your revolver cost.

If you are courageous, or foolish, or both, you could try to install a cap rake yourself. I can send you the original article written by "Utah" about installing a post in the hammer recess. If you want a PDF copy, send me your email address in a personal message and I will send it to you. I also published a video to YouTube a few days ago showing how to make one out of a coin. You could do it yourself with files and patience. I am not a gunsmith, obviously, and I have done four that way, and they all work. But I would recommend shooting your revolver for a few years before making that decision.

Here is the link:

 

[expat_alaska]

I have watched Mike Belliveau's videos, among others, and have noticed that their pistols do not have cap rake. While I am not downing it whatsoever, Mike and others have a habit of, after firing a shot, letting the pistol come up to the full vertical position, then turning the revolver to the right horizontally, before cocking the hammer, turning the cylinder, and allowing the spent cap to fall, and then returning the revolver to the firing position.

Although I am a collector, not a shooter, I have tried it with firing just caps and have found that works very well without a cap rake. And the spent caps were very much maligned and not adhered to the nipple.

Jim

 

[drobs]

At this point I'd recommend you shoot the gun before doing / buying anything anything else.
Shoot it with and without the nipple rings.

 

[BullSlinger]

I agree with Drobs. Shoot the thing before investing any more of your hard earned money. You may find that the tubing retainers work well for you. I hope that you do not have much longer to wait for the government paper so you can shoot the thing.

 

[Mizar]

First, a disclaimer that I don't own a Colt-style open top revolver, but would like to offer my 2 (Euro) cents on the subject anyway: cap sucking and jamming the action is a well known problem of those revolvers, so there's really no need to wait until shooting it - from what I could gather as information, it is happening on almost all of the guns. That subject is discussed endlessly here, and on some other forums as well, making it quite easy to search for information as to how exactly a cap rake (post) must be installed. Done properly it would not alter the action at any way and it is much more preferable that the finicky silicone tubing. At least for me that is...

I would hesitate to fill the safety notch on the hammer with JB Weld (Liquid metal epoxy) because after that you will not be able to use the safety pins - i.e. to safely carry it fully loaded.

As I understand it, part of the problem comes from cap thickness - today's caps are made from much thinner material, thus being more prone to blow apart and/or deform and wedge itself into the hammer notch. I have measured material thickness of two brands of caps readily available in the EU - RWS 1075 and Sellier & Bellot 4mm. For RWS it's 0,16 mm (0.0063"), for S&B - 0,18 mm (0.007"). I remember that Remington caps felt quite thin also - some of our US colleagues could measure Remington and CCI thickness if they wish. Maybe that difference is of no real significance, but maybe it is...

Nipples - it would be great if someone makes a comparison between stock nipples, TRESSO style ones and Slix-Shot. I wonder if the different design (flash hole size, cap post) would make a significant difference. But the comparison must be made with just one revolver, shooting equal max. charges of gunpowder, preferably with conicals (maximum pressure and blow-back gasses) so the test would be viable and cover the worst case scenario. I see a little point of shooting mouse fart loads for testing, unless that is the only desired use for the revolver. Even then, the low back pressure would mask problems, otherwise readily apparent with the maximum load. One could mislead others as to what works and what not that way.

1861, you should consider doing two other modifications also - adjusting the arbor length, so it can rest on the barrel channel, and reaming the chambers to mach the barrel diameter. Proper timing of the action is a must, because it will guarantee you a long lasting revolver. Common problem on Cap & Ball replica revolvers is the late bolt drop, right into the edges of the cylinder bolt notches. If this is not corrected, soon you will have to deal with the peened and deformed edges of the same. So, check your timing carefully and don't skip on corrections.

You say that your gunsmith is a knowledgeable fellow - even if he is not familiar with those revolver actions, you can provide him the needed technical information. If he is the type that uses his head for thinking, and not just as a hat hanger, he will understand what is needed (and, more importantly, why) at no time.

 

[1861]

I think with an open top revolver, jams can be reduced dramatically, but I don't know of anything that will abso-bloomin'-lutely guarantee 100% jam-free shooting. If you want perfection, you will get close with a Ruger Old Army percussion revolver, and maybe get a jam every 5 years or so. A ROA will cost 5 or 6 times what your revolver cost.

If you are courageous, or foolish, or both, you could try to install a cap rake yourself.

"jams can be reduced dramatically" - sounds good enough to me, thanks.
I don't care about Rugers, Remingtons... ONLY COLT.
If any modifications are ever done to my revolver(s), they'll be performed only by experienced expert, a master gunsmith. I didn't even think of doing anything on metal parts myself.

 

[1861]

adjusting the arbor length, so it can rest on the barrel channel, and reaming the chambers to mach the barrel diameter. Proper timing of the action is a must, because it will guarantee you a long lasting revolver. Common problem on Cap & Ball replica revolvers is the late bolt drop, right into the edges of the cylinder bolt notches. If this is not corrected, soon you will have to deal with the peened and deformed edges of the same. So, check your timing carefully and don't skip on corrections.

I have NO IDEA what you wrote here. Let's go step by step, not to open another Pandora's box of new issues, yet.

 

[Mizar]

Time to start reading then...

 

[drobs]

Short arbors are more of a Uberti problem than a Pietta problem and really have no bearing here.

 

[Mizar]

Well, OK...

 

[drobs]

Well, OK...

Unless you just want to confuse the guy further.

 

[Mizar]

Or, unless you know that those revolvers are essentially a DIY kit and until you check that there is no way to be sure. Like you guys use to say: "Better safe than sorry". Proper arbor length is checked in a minute and I choose to trust my eyes, than some Internet "truth". Furthermore, people claim that most new Piettas have proper arbor length, not every one of them...

 

[expat_alaska]

Proper arbor length is checked in a minute and I choose to trust my eyes, than some Internet "truth". Furthermore, people claim that most new Piettas have proper arbor length, not every one of them...

Since ~2000, Pietta has used CNC machining for all of their replica Colt type revolvers. Therefore, all of the arbors since then will be the same length (within each model type), as well as the arbor recess depth. I have 3 Pietta 1851 Navy type revolvers that all interchange barrels and cylinders on all 3 frames: 2014, 2015, and 2016, with same arbor fit on all 3.

I fail to understand your reasoning that some arbors are short.

All bets are off if the Pietta was manufactured prior to 2000, and I underlined "new" in your quote.

If you have a Pietta with a short arbor, I would like to know what the date code is on the right side of the frame.

Jim

 

[Mizar]

I fail to understand your reasoning that some arbors are short.

Because that's what some more knowledgeable folks than me claim - most of the time the arbors are OK, but sometimes a slightly shorter one is present. I repeat - sometimes. A slightly shorter one. Not like Uberti's every time... I don't claim that it MUST be done, I only suggested to check it and if needed to be corrected. CNC machines are not a guarantee for 100% fail free assembly - I dealt for more than 10 years with Italian construction machinery and I know, first hand, what they can (can't) do. I don't own a Pietta open top yet, but my observations from recent production guns confirm my suspicions - timing problems, spotty quality, although much, much better then what it was about 10 years ago. Those revolvers are a kit-gun essentially, they must be tuned for reliability and longevity. That's the simple truth - those are some cheap guns, so don't expect Colt like quality and tight tolerances just because they are shiny. And I have no problem with that - I can make it work like it should if needed.

P.S. My 1858 Pietta, manufactured in 2010 (CF date code) came from the factory with 0.02" barrel to cylinder gap. 0.02" - that's not a typo. We bought two identical guns with the same excessive B/C gaps. So much for the quality of Pietta's CNC machining.

 

[1861]

I appreciate your concern Mizar, but still don't understand none of it. So let's do it like this: IF I experience any problems when I actually start using my revolver, I'll report them here and then we'll know is there a reason to learn more about this and to adress this issue which you're mentioning. I'm going away now for a few days, take care y'all.

 

[Mk VII]

The other day I picked up a [genuine] London Navy off the auction house table and tried the action ... chalk and cheese compared to our present day reproductions. Same with the one I own, so it's not a one-off.

 

[expat_alaska]

Because that's what some more knowledgeable folks than me claim - most of the time the arbors are OK, but sometimes a slightly shorter one is present. I repeat - sometimes. A slightly shorter one. Not like Uberti's every time... I don't claim that it MUST be done, I only suggested to check it and if needed to be corrected. CNC machines are not a guarantee for 100% fail free assembly - I dealt for more than 10 years with Italian construction machinery and I know, first hand, what they can (can't) do.

I absolutely agree that one should check the arbor fit to the barrel lug recess. Mine have never had a problem, even between 3 pistols and exchanging parts. I never said that CNC machined pistols have "fail-free" assembly. That is up to the factory assemblers. That is far different than having spec parts to assemble.

I don't own a Pietta open top yet, but my observations from recent production guns confirm my suspicions - timing problems, spotty quality, although much, much better then what it was about 10 years ago.

If you don't own one, your "observations" are confined to what you have read online or experienced elsewhere.

Those revolvers are a kit-gun essentially, they must be tuned for reliability and longevity. That's the simple truth - those are some cheap guns, so don't expect Colt like quality and tight tolerances just because they are shiny. And I have no problem with that - I can make it work like it should if needed.

Have you ever assembled and built a repro 1851 Navy kit gun? I take it you have not. I have and it was very tedious and the results were no where near the same. There are no proof marks, no date code on the frame or other parts, and everything is in the rough. Even the blueing on the barrel and cylinder is just a blush to preclude rust.

As an owner of three Pietta factory assembled models, they are far beyond "kit" quality, sir.

If you do not own a Pietta repro Colt 1851 Navy (which is what this thread is all about), why are you so sure you can fix all its supposed ills? YouTube videos? Other?

Just buy one (a mere pittance) and exercise your skills to your heart's content upon creating the essence of a 1851 Navy repro to excel beyond any of the Colt repros that cost 4-5 times as much.

Or buy your beloved Colt and spend the money.

P.S. My 1858 Pietta, manufactured in 2010 (CF date code) came from the factory with 0.02" barrel to cylinder gap. 0.02" - that's not a typo. We bought two identical guns with the same excessive B/C gaps. So much for the quality of Pietta's CNC machining.

Now you are talking apples and oranges insofar as the difference between open top Colt repros and solid top NMA repros (aka 1858 Remingtons). I have no experience with a repro Remington "1858" NMA so I cannot comment more, other than I am sorry you have a .020" gap on your Remington copy.

Maybe you should have done your homework, sir.

Jim