Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

1858 Remington

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by rodwha, Nov 24, 2012.

?

Which New Model Army?

Poll closed Feb 22, 2013.
  1. Uberti

    26 vote(s)
    46.4%
  2. Pietta

    30 vote(s)
    53.6%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. unknwn

    unknwn Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    316
    I'd like to apologize for my frequently long posts, but, at least I strive to provide for proper sentence & paragraph structure, punctuation, spelling, and over-all readability, so here you go...

    I have a 5.5" blued and a long barreled stainless '58 Piettas. I bought them both on price alone.
    I have learned a few things about these guns since, which I will try to convey here.
    Due to my middle finger getting battered by the trigger guard I will be carving up the grip strap and trigger guards for clearance as Prairie Dawg outlined for me.
    I just don't think I'd be willing to modify the frame,grips and trigger guard like this on the much more expensive Uberti guns if those were what I had bought initially.
    I'm not certain if the fabled grip size difference between the two brands addresses this VERY real problem or not. The Pietta definately suffers (or might make you suffer) from this clearance problem.
    If I were in the market for a new stainless framed '58, I would most certainly be considering the Uberti though because of thier better engineering of the dovetails on the barrel for the loading ram catch (it's a BIG deal), and the muzzle end site block. Being able to adjust windage is an important variable that I wish I'd been aware of before I'd spent for the stainless gun
    Since I figure on carving the recoil shield of my s.s. Pietta for a gated conversion, I may likely spend the bucks to get the Uberti dovetailed sight and the loading ram catch & modify my gun to accept those parts. That's how strongly I feel about that bit of difference between the two brands.
    The loading ram catch on the Pietta is a dowel/pin type fit that may or may not be soldered onto the barrel, I have read some accounts of them popping off, If that were to happen to mine, I will most certainly change to Uberti's method.
    I've also heard that Uberti does a bit better job of the placement of those uneccessary warning and manufacturer's logo & country of origin lettering (on the underside of barrel, ect.). If I remove my s.s. Pietta barrel for dovetail work (or any otherwise) I will expend the effort to defarb that awful & unneeded signage from the barrel. All and All, I will end up with a Pietta s.s. '58 that will probably be more expensive that if I had bought the Uberti to begin with (that is, before the conversion cylinder & related parts).
    You should consider buying the Uberti through the Beretta web store.
    If you sign up for thier email promotions, you qualify for some signifigant discount. If you find and register to the Beretta forum, and search for the link to register your forum membership to the Beretta web store, you can qualify for an everyday 15% discount at the Beretta store also.
    I suspect that there might not be a better deal for a stainless Uberti '58 New Army ANYwhere else, It would likely be worth your time to check it all out though.
    One last thing comes to mind. The Uberti s do, where the Pietta s don't, have access to hardened screw sets as made available by the VTI company.
    I know that I just hate worn/buggered screw slots, and even though I have and religiously use the proper size slotted screw bits, the slots still suffer damage eventually.
    Now I HATE the fact that the hardened screws are priced somewhere between the value of platinum & silver, but I will ONLY buy a replacement screw ONCE if it is the hardened variety, where the normal factory screws tend to get worn enough for me to consider discarding them after about every eighth to tenth heavy torque event.
    I wish VTI would supply the Pietta fitments for these HARD-ass screws, but as of now I don't believe that they are readily available.
    Since we are talking black powder guns here, and that dismantling them entirely for proper cleaning is an almost every-use event, the cost of the hardened screws will be offset easily if you are concerned about the appearance of the screws on your guns.
     
  2. Driftwood Johnson

    Driftwood Johnson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    2,867
    Location:
    Land of the Pilgrims
    Totally dismantling a BP revolver every time you shoot it is not necessary.

    I am assuming you are cleaning it with hot water. If so, stop doing that. The problem of cleaning a BP gun with water is getting all the water out again so it does not cause rust.

    Here is a little known fact. If you infuse Black Powder fouling with oil, it will not cause any rust. As most of us know, Black Powder fouling is hygroscopic. It absorbs moisture from the air and that is what causes the rust. If you can soak the fouling with oil, it behaves like a sponge that is soaked with water. It cannot absorb any more water.

    Run down to the store and buy a quart each of Murphy's Oil Soap, Rubbing Alcohol, and Hydrogen Per Oxide. Mix them in a 3 quart juice jug. Next time you shoot, clean the gun with this mix, I call it Murphy's Mix. Be sure to use it very liberally, slop it all over the gun and work some down inside the hand window, the hammer opening, and the trigger opening with q-tips. Then follow up and lube the bore, chambers, and outside of the gun lightly with Ballistol. Work the Ballistol into the action too.

    Here is how it works. The alcohol is about 20% water and the Per Oxide is about 97% water. Yes, water is an excellent BP solvent and that is what does the actual cleaning. When the water evaporates it leaves the oil soap behind which coats any fouling left behind and renders it harmless. Really, it does. The alcohol serves as a drying agent to speed up evaporation and the 3% Per Oxide provides a little bit of fizz to help lift the fouling.

    I go through about 20 pounds of Black Powder every year in CAS. I shoot Colts, Rugers, clones as well as original Top Break Smith and Wessons. And several lever guns and a shotgun. Once a year I take them down to remove all the black, oily guck left inside the actions. There is always plenty of it, but there is never any rust because the oil that coats the fouling down inside has made it unable to cause rust.

    Really.

    Been doing it for years.

    Try it, you will save your screws.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  3. rodwha

    rodwha Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,761
    Location:
    Texas
    So you mix all 3 in equal parts volume?
     
  4. rodwha

    rodwha Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,761
    Location:
    Texas
    Though I like the Pietta a little more only because they are offered everywhere, and finding a deal is much easier. But I think I may be swayed by the smaller grip if Pietta's grip is much larger than a ROA's.

    I've also been eyeing the Pietta 1851 .44 cal revolvers. I must say that I like the idea of a quick cylinder swap. No need to bring reloading supplies on a hunting trip with a spare cylinder...
     
  5. Malachi Leviticus Blue

    Malachi Leviticus Blue Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2012
    Messages:
    797
    Location:
    Michigan
    The Pietta 1858 Rem overall grip size is not larger than an ROA. While the wood grip panels of the two are not the same shape, they are fairly comparable in size. The ROA grip frame however is wider and so the overall grip size of the ROA is a bit larger than the Pietta 1858.
     
  6. Malachi Leviticus Blue

    Malachi Leviticus Blue Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2012
    Messages:
    797
    Location:
    Michigan
    II think you are mistaken, in my experience the Grip of the Uberti 1858's is smaller then the Pietta 1858's.
     
  7. kwhi43@kc.rr.com

    kwhi43@kc.rr.com Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    2,153
    Yes, and the grip on the Euroarms are smaller yet.
     
  8. Driftwood Johnson

    Driftwood Johnson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    2,867
    Location:
    Land of the Pilgrims
    Yes, equal parts. And you only need to buy a quart of each, not a half gallon. Then it will fit in a three quart juice jug. I just made the correction to my post above.
     
  9. Busyhands94

    Busyhands94 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Messages:
    2,371
    Location:
    California, the "you can't have it" State.
    I have short and fat fingers, the pietta grip fits my hand well despite being rather large. But my engraved nickle plated Armsport Remington has a slightly thinner grip, it feels almost like a K-frame Smith except a little heavier and more powerful. That being said, I like the thicker grip on the pietta, it's good too. And with heavier loads it's a pleasure to shoot.
     
  10. rodwha

    rodwha Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,761
    Location:
    Texas
    Would the stainless models be stronger than the other models?
     
  11. Driftwood Johnson

    Driftwood Johnson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    2,867
    Location:
    Land of the Pilgrims
    No. Generally speaking, the types of Stainless used making firearms are not significantly stronger than the carbon steel used for blued firearms.

    And contrary to popular belief, stainless is not easier to clean than blued steel. The ability for fouling to cling to metal is more related to the surface finish of the metal than anything else. Shiny blued guns require pretty much the same amount of elbow grease to clean as shiny stainless guns.
     
  12. Driftwood Johnson

    Driftwood Johnson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    2,867
    Location:
    Land of the Pilgrims
    Yes, you are correct. I was in error. I have two 1858s, a stainless Uberti and an old EuroArms that I bought in 1975. The EuroArms Remmie was actually made by Armi San Paolo, and it is significantly smaller than the Uberti. I'm not talking about just the grip, the entire gun weighs about 4 ounces less than the Uberti. Sorry, I was thinking of my EuroArms Remmie and forgot it was made by Armi San Paolo, not by Pietta.

    Just plain forgot.

    Sorry.
     
  13. jake_yer_booty

    jake_yer_booty Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    15
    P vs. U 1858: my $0.02

    The build quality of the Piettas I have seen is amazingly good for the price. I know 2 guys who love theirs.

    I have an Uberti w/ 2 cylinders and it is wonderful.

    Grip is always a matter of personal fit. Larger hands will have a bit of trouble with the triggerguard against the middle digit, but it is supposed to be a replica of a 154 yr-old design, so IMO you should just take it as part of the experience. Held properly in a one-handed grip, "hanging" in the formal shooting fashion of the day, you won't notice it.

    My experience with poor-shooting BP revolvers has ALWAYS ended up with root cause at the cylinder and bore size relationship. I have seen replica '58s with .452 cylinders and .457 bores. That's just not a combination that contributes to accuracy.

    I bought mine from a small local dealer at a price $30 higher than if I had purchased it through the catalog stores, BUT he permitted me to slug the cylinders and bore to insure I had a set that would meet my requirement. I rejected two of three cylinders because the holes were too small.

    I haven't really done the work needed to find the very best load, but here is one that suits me very well:

    18 gr FFFg
    1/8 in wool felt lathered on the bullet side with TC Bore Butter
    Saeco #453 225 gr wadcutter cast soft, seated to just barely compress the felt wad
    Smidgeon of bore butter to cover

    Yes, the bullet is of the wrong period, but this leisure-velocity load punches clean and shoots beautifully. I have managed to drop them in groups under 2.5" at 25 yds often enough to know it isn't a fluke.
     
  14. rodwha

    rodwha Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,761
    Location:
    Texas
    What I seem to consistently read is that, though Pietta has come a long way, and has closed the gap well, the Uberti is still just a little better in the quality of workmanship, as well as being more true to the originals.

    The cost difference isn't really all that much unless you find a blued Pietta on sale at Cabela's it seems:

    Cabela's Pietta 1858 5.5" $270 (B) on sale for $200, $440 (SS)
    Midway's Uberti 1858 5.5" $315 (B) $400 (SS)
    Taylor's Uberti 1858 5.5" $349 (B) $444 (SS)
    The Possibles Shop's Uberti 1858 5.5" $315 (B) $385 (SS)

    I can get a Uberti in stainless cheaper than a Pietta.

    I'd spend the extra $50 on a blued model if it's indeed built better. If it's not really any better I'd certainly take the sale deal. Were it stainless, well, I'd go with the Uberti as it's thought to be the better of the two as well as $40 cheaper.
     
  15. rodwha

    rodwha Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,761
    Location:
    Texas
    I'm curious as to how many of you who voted for the Pietta did so because they thought it was of better quality?
     
  16. unknwn

    unknwn Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    316
    "...Run down to the store and buy a quart each of Murphy's Oil Soap, Rubbing Alcohol, and Hydrogen Per Oxide. Mix them in a 3 quart juice jug. Next time you shoot, clean the gun with this mix, I call it Murphy's Mix..."

    I keep saying that Driftwood comes up with the best answers and most pertinant posts that have to do with any topic broached here.

    So far as the peroxide and rubbing alchohol go there are always several varieties (97% - 93% ect.) , which end of that spectrum does one want to shoot for? (I think it has to do with how little water is in the product ?)

    When you use the Ballistol on the chambers and bore, does this promote "seasoning" of the metal in those areas?
    Do you do any more than dry patch the chambers and bore prior to loading up and shooting again?
    Another thing that I wanted to ask is: Do you fire off caps through each cylinder prior to loading to check the nipples for clear of obstruction & dry?
    Could I just use a squirt of brake cleaner and then a puff of bottled air instead?
    So far as beating up my screws goes, the only ones that get that sort of repetition are the two upper and one lower screws on the backstrap.
    I like to remove the wood from my Colt's clones before cleaning whenever possible so that I save it from exposure to moisture & oils other than wood-centric products.

    One last thing before I close this post.
    Anyone that feels thier ROA grip panels are too "filling" for thier hands, and would like to keep Ruger parts on thier guns should try a set of grip panels from a Single-Ten model. They are dramaticly thinner than the original ROA grip panels, I'm also fairly certain that they are made out of rosewood.
     
  17. Driftwood Johnson

    Driftwood Johnson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    2,867
    Location:
    Land of the Pilgrims
    unknwn:

    Thanks for the kind words.

    As far as the Per Oxide content, it does not really matter a whole lot. The stuff I usually buy, right in the drugstore portion of the supermarket, is only 3% Per Oxide, the rest is water. There are those who have gotten all in a tither in the past because in strong concentrations Hydrogen Per Oxide is a strong oxidizer. They are afraid it will cause rust. After all, the Germans were using Hydrogen Per Oxide as part of the fuel in the V2 rocket in WWII. However that was a very strong concentration. I am talking about 3% Per Oxide. When combined with equal amounts of the other two components, that gets reduced to 1% of the total liquid. I even know guys who substitute water for the Per Oxide portion of Murphy's Mix, because they are afraid the Per Oxide will cause rust. All the Per Oxide does is cause a little bit of fizzing action which will help lift any stubborn fouling. When I first started experimenting with this stuff, I coated a piece of low carbon steel with it and allowed it to sit until it dried. There was no rust, so I am quite certain the tiny percentage of Per Oxide does not cause any rust.

    Bottom line, I do not think there will be any significant difference if you use 7% Per Oxide, or 3% as I do. All I have ever seen in local stores is the 3% variety. By the way, I just bought some more of all three and have not mixed them yet. The alcohol I usually buy is sold as Rubbing Alcohol. It is 70% Isopropyl Alcohol. The rest is water. There are a few different types of alcohol on drugstore shelves, I think I have bought 80% sometimes. Again, it does not really matter. All that water in the Per Oxide and some water in the alcohol is what does the actual cleaning. The alcohol is just a drying agent to evaporate the water more quickly.

    I usually use this stuff in cartridge guns, which have chambers that are more easily cleaned than a C&B chamber. Easy to run a cleaning patch right through a the chambers of a cartridge revolver. C&B chambers have more 'nooks and crannies' where oil and water can hide. My method is to first run a patch that has been soaked with Ballistol through the chambers and the bore. Then I follow up with a dry patch to mop up the excess and leave a light coating of Ballistol behind on the metal.

    If you want to talk about 'seasoning' the metal, there have been arguments about that for years. Some say the metal gets 'seasoned' as the microscopic pores in the metal take on some oil. Others say that is hogwash.

    I will tell you this. I don't apply Ballistol to 'season' the steel. I do it to protect the steel from oxidation and to infuse oil into any BP fouling that remains in the bore.

    My first CAS rifle was an original Winchester Model 1892, chambered for 44-40 and manufactured in 1894. It is a beautiful old rifle, it has been refinished by somebody else, so it looks almost new. But like many guns made that long ago, the bore is pitted, from less than perfect cleaning techniques over the years. I was shooting that rifle with Smokeless, and when I started reading about Black Powder, I recall Mike Venturino saying it is a lot of work to get all the fouling out of the thousands of tiny pits in an old pitted bore. Best to start with a shiny new bore, said Mike. So I bought a nice used Uberti replica 1873 rifle that had a bright, spotless, unpitted bore. Shot it for a bunch of years. Then after thinking about it for a while, I reasoned that if any fouling left behind will be rendered harmless by infusing it with oil, I though why not allow a bit of oil left in the bore to protect the steel without breaking my arm trying to get every last molecule of BP fouling out. Guess what? It works. I now have lots of old guns that have pitted bores that I only shoot with Black Powder. I am not talking about a sewer pipe, I would not buy an old revolver or a rifle that did not have strong rifling. But pitting never stops me from buying an old gun. When I clean these guns I do not attempt to get every spec of fouling out of the hundreds or thousands of pits in the old bores. I run a few patches soaked with Murphy's Mix down them as I have described. My Uberti Henry, my normal Main Match rifle, has a shiny new bore. So a few patches and it is clean. But if I am shooting one of my old rifles, or old revolvers, with pitted bores, I run a few patches soaked with Ballistol down the bore and chambers. I do not attempt to get every spec of fouling out. Then I run a Murphy's Mix soaked patch through, then I follow up with a dry patch to mop up the excess. But I am sure to leave a thin coating of Ballistol behind to protect the steel AND to soak into any fouling still in the bores. Am I 'seasoning' the metal? I doubt it. But I am protecting the steel.

    As I said, it is much easier to clean a cartridge revolver. I also do something that most shooters frown on. I just leave the thin coating of Ballistol in the chambers before I fire my first shot. This is a big no-no, all the books you read will tell you to clean any oil out of the chambers before firing the gun. That is because when the cartridge expands as it fires, the brass grips the sides of the chamber, reducing the backwards thrust of the cartridge against the recoil shield. I am firing Black Powder in these guns, pressure is low. If the cases are sliding backwards a bit because the chambers are a little bit oily, I have never seen anything bad happening because of it. And I have been doing this for a long time now.

    But a C&B is of course a different animal. Yes, before shooting I will place a patch on the slotted end of a cleaning rod and swirl it around in the chamber to remove as much Ballistol as possible. If I am shooting C&B at a match I will fire caps on empty chambers to burn out any oils left behind in the chambers. Usually do it at the loading table before the first stage starts. Seems to work pretty well, I seldom have a cap that fires without the charge going off. I also don't allow those first charges to sit in the chambers too long, in case there is any oil left in there. I charge my cylinders with powder back at my cart, then I get in line at the loading table and cap my cylinders, shooting them just a few minutes later.

    Once I have fired the first stage, I don't do any more cleaning. Just charge my chambers with powder, wad, and ball at my cart, then procede to the table to cap. Then shoot. I do keep a stiff piece of music wire handy as a pick in case I have to poke out the nipples, but I seldom use it.

    Seems to work pretty well.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page