1898 S&W help

[WestKentucky]

I have a 38 sw safety hammerless in remarkable condition. Manufacture date is 1898. I would like to find either an authentic period box and paperwork or a replica box and paperwork set to put the gun with for display purposes. I have found some period newspaper ads but so far they are too small to frame and display. My gun was factory refinished in 1969 which was appropriately stamped on the frame under the grips so true collectors value is gone, I just want it to be a more interesting display collection.

 

[Col. Harrumph]

I imagine eBay would be your best bet, and there are a few gun-related auction sites also. Set up an automatic search and you'll get an email whenever a new listing generates a "hit." It may take months... it took nearly a year until I found a decent antique hand-crank 12 ga. roll crimp tool on gunbroker.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The Smith and Wesson Forum is where you want to go.

But first, let's identify exactly which 38 S&W Safety Hammerless you have, as there were five slightly different models made over the years. If you know for sure it was made in 1898, it is either a 3rd Model or a 4th Model. The 3rd Model was made from 1890 until 1898, the 4th Model was made from 1898 until 1907. The easiest way to differentiate between the various models of 38 Safety Hammerless models is by how the latch operates. If you can provide a clear, well focused photo of the latch area of the gun, I can probably tell you which model it is. Also, it would be nice to know if it is it blued or nickel plated.

There were wooden display boxes made, but they are going to be rare and expensive. More than you are going to want to spend for a refinished revolver.

Over the years I have been able to pick up a few S&W pocket pistols with their original boxes. They are not all that rare. The closest thing I have with a box to your 38 is this 32 Safety Hammerless that left the factory in 1905.

This is a typical hinged factory box from that era. As with all things S&W, the boxes varied in appearance over the years. S&W revolvers were sold with boxes like this from the late 1870s until the early 20th Century. Made of cardboard and covered with cloth. You can see how the cloth forms the hinge. The color of the cloth varied over the years. Inside there was usually a label like this pasted to the cover describing the model and how to use it.






The top of this style box was usually plain without any marking. This box is in pretty good shape. The corners often suffered from wear. There was usually a label pasted on one end of the box describing what was inside. I'll see if I can get a shot of the end label later on so you see what they looked like.






The box for this model is unusual in that it had an illustration of the gun pasted onto the top of the box. The label has a lot of wear on it. This is a 38 Single Action, 1st Model, also known as the Baby Russian.






This box had a cardboard partition on the inside. There would have been cleaning tools in the partition areas. This one is unusual in that the distributor's name, M.W. Robinson, has been stamped onto the label.






Anyway, the place you want to go if you want to find a box is the Smith and Wesson Forum.


http://smith-wessonforum.com/forum.php

First go to the Revolver section, then go to the Antiques section. Spend some time browsing around to learn about the different types of Top Breaks.

There is a classified section on the main page. There is a section for Accessories and Misc. for sale or trade. Read the rules, you will probably have to register for the forum. There is a Wanted to Buy section too. Guys are looking for boxes there all the time.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Howdy

The Smith and Wesson Forum is where you want to go.

But first, let's identify exactly which 38 S&W Safety Hammerless you have, as there were five slightly different models made over the years. If you know for sure it was made in 1898, it is either a 3rd Model or a 4th Model. The 3rd Model was made from 1890 until 1898, the 4th Model was made from 1898 until 1907. The easiest way to differentiate between the various models of 38 Safety Hammerless models is by how the latch operates. If you can provide a clear, well focused photo of the latch area of the gun, I can probably tell you which model it is. Also, it would be nice to know if it is it blued or nickel plated.

There were wooden display boxes made, but they are going to be rare and expensive. More than you are going to want to spend for a refinished revolver.

Over the years I have been able to pick up a few S&W pocket pistols with their original boxes. They are not all that rare. The closest thing I have with a box to your 38 is this 32 Safety Hammerless that left the factory in 1905.

This is a typical hinged factory box from that era. As with all things S&W, the boxes varied in appearance over the years. S&W revolvers were sold with boxes like this from the late 1870s until the early 20th Century. Made of cardboard and covered with cloth. You can see how the cloth forms the hinge. The color of the cloth varied over the years. Inside there was usually a label like this pasted to the cover describing the model and how to use it.

View attachment 775688




The top of this style box was usually plain without any marking. This box is in pretty good shape. The corners often suffered from wear. There was usually a label pasted on one end of the box describing what was inside. I'll see if I can get a shot of the end label later on so you see what they looked like.

View attachment 775689




The box for this model is unusual in that it had an illustration of the gun pasted onto the top of the box. The label has a lot of wear on it. This is a 38 Single Action, 1st Model, also known as the Baby Russian.

View attachment 775690




This box had a cardboard partition on the inside. There would have been cleaning tools in the partition areas. This one is unusual in that the distributor's name, M.W. Robinson, has been stamped onto the label.

View attachment 775691




Anyway, the place you want to go if you want to find a box is the Smith and Wesson Forum.


http://smith-wessonforum.com/forum.php

First go to the Revolver section, then go to the Antiques section. Spend some time browsing around to learn about the different types of Top Breaks.

There is a classified section on the main page. There is a section for Accessories and Misc. for sale or trade. Read the rules, you will probably have to register for the forum. There is a Wanted to Buy section too. Guys are looking for boxes there all the time.

Too cool Driftwood thanks for sharing the pictures! Really wish S&W would reintroduce these in some form, even if its just a poly-framed auto ejector .22.....I'd be all over one of those!

 

[bannockburn]

Driftwood

Love the Baby Russian!

 

[WestKentucky]

Thanks driftwood. Mine is a very early 4th model. I don’t know if it was originally blued or not but it is now. I suspect that it was nickeled originally as the stamping on the frame is pretty eroded which I suspect to be from some mechanical process of removing remaining nickel, but it could also be a weak stamp as I have also seen, or perhaps rust removal thinned it out. The insides are very crisp and clean so perhaps it was factory blued originally. I don’t know for sure. I am sure I don’t want to pay 80 bucks for a letter on it from the s&w historic society.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

As far as I know, very generally speaking S&W would refinish a revolver with the same type of finish it shipped with, either blued or nickle plated. That is only an assumption on my part, but I have several antique Smiths that have been refinished at the factory, and I know they came back with the same type of finish they were shipped with. Although I'm sure S&W could change the type of finish if it was requested.

Interestingly enough, more antiques shipped with nickel plated finishes than blued. That is probably because the bluing of the day did not protect the gun from rust and wear as well as nickle plating did.

The refinishing process would involve completely stripping the old finish down to bare metal, either blued or nickel. A good job of refinishing is done to bare metal, not over rust or pitting. The metal is removed by polishing, and it requires great skill to polish away just enough metal without over doing it. An amateur job is usually easy to spot. The more pitting, the more metal they would remove. Polishing was done with polishing and buffing wheels. There were racks and racks of buffing wheels in the finishing department, each one with a specific profile for different parts of different guns.

Removing a lot of pitting would sometimes have the effect of blurring or partially obscuring any markings on the gun. I have a few Smiths that were refinished at the factory and the marking is a little bit blurry on a couple of them.

Here is a photo from a 1950s S&W publication showing parts being polished. Notice all the polishing wheels on the rack. As the caption says, those are but a few of the many required. That, and the skill required is why it is usually easy to spot an amateur job.

 

[WestKentucky]

You rascals didn’t even remind me that a picture is worth an hour of explaining. Here are 3. It’s hard to get a clear picture of the patent stamps on the barrel. Lighting isn’t great. I will try for better pictures when I have good natural lighting.

 

[Jim Watson]

Although I'm sure S&W could change the type of finish if it was requested.

Yes. At one time the box leaflet listed "Refinish" in blue or nickel, I think at the same price; and for a few dollars more a "Change of finish" either way. Unfortunately not on my 1960 edition.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

This Schofield was refinished at the factory in 1957. You can see how the markings on the extractor housing are a bit washed out from the polishing that had to be done to remove however much rust and pitting was in that area.

The white color is just a reflection of the light, the blue is pretty even.






I can't see much in your photos, but the partially washed out shield on the right side of the frame is pretty typical of heavy buffing to remove pitting and rust.

Things to look for in a good refinish job is the joint between the frame and the side plate should be almost invisible. A poor refinisher will round over the edges of the side plate so the joint stands out like a sore thumb.

Edges that left the factory sharp should still remain sharp after the refinish job. Aggressive polishing will round over sharp edges.

Over polishing often wallows out screw holes so they no longer look concentric and round.

And S&W never blued or plated hammers and triggers. These parts were always Case Hardened with brilliant colors. So much so that at one point S&W trademarked their case hardened hammers and triggers in an effort to discourage inexpensive copies from being imported into this country. A nickel plated hammer or trigger is a dead giveaway that the gun was not refinished by S&W. The colors usually fade from these parts over time, but the hardness achieved by the Case Hardening does not.

Here is the Trademark stamped onto the hammer of a 38 M&P that shipped in 1939. It reads REG U.S. PAT.OFF, for Registered US Patent Office. Notice the colors are still there. Eventually the government told S&W they could not trade mark their Case Hardened parts like that, so they stopped marking them this way.

 

[WestKentucky]

Thanks driftwood. Everything looks right on my gun with 2 exceptions, the shield stamp being washed out and the trigger not being uniformly clean. I will disassemble it and clean that trigger up with steel wool.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Thanks driftwood. Everything looks right on my gun with 2 exceptions, the shield stamp being washed out and the trigger not being uniformly clean. I will disassemble it and clean that trigger up with steel wool.

Best not to use steel wool. If you use steel wool only use OOOO grade, and use a light oil as a lubricant. Go very gently. Better still, use bronze wool, which you can buy from Brownells. Bronze will not abrade the steel, steel wool will.

 

[Jim K]

Just FWIW, the "REG.U.S.PAT.OFF." on S&W hammers referred to the color case hardening of the hammer itself. In the 1920's, the US was inundated by Spanish copies of S&W revolvers, some nice looking but all mostly junk, made of cast iron and dangerous to fire. S&W fought back in several ways, one of which was to trademark the case coloring on its hammer and trigger (the patent office handles registration of trade marks as well as patents). If the Spanish makers didn't color those parts, the gun would not look like an S&W; if they did, they would be in violation of the trademark laws and t he guns would be confiscated.. I have not heard that the (US) government stopped the marking; S&W stopped it when it and other measures had the desired effect plus the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War eliminated the Spanish export trade in guns.

S&W has continued to color those parts, though, to protect its trademark; It means little these days, but S&W doesn't want to lose the trademark, which (unlike a patent) is good indefinitely but will lapse if not used.

Jim