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1911 guide rod

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by BP Hunter, May 8, 2013.

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  1. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Speak for yourself. If a bushing is that tight, it needs to be corrected...and I don't want to have to use any sort of tool to field-strip a duty pistol.

    I don't think I've heard anybody "go on" about that feature, other than as a point of historical interest to illustrate the careful attention to detail. One of the 1911 pistol's main selling points during the field trials was its ability to be detail stripped for service without the need for tools. In fact, that was what sounded the final death knell for the Savage.

    Browning stepped up to the table and, without using hand tools, took the Colt apart and put it back together before the Savage rep could get his apart. Up to that point, the people who still wanted the Savage...despite its problems...knew that it was all over with.
     
  2. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

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    A substantial amount of 1911 functioning problems are from tampering with the original design. If it ain't broke, keep "fixing" it until it is.
     
  3. huntershooter

    huntershooter Member

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    FLGR= "an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem".
    The FLGR's were necessary on cone barrel/bushingless, compensated 1911's, but are simply a PITA on a "stock" gun.
     
  4. OilyPablo

    OilyPablo Member

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    People are odd. Buddy at work, Glock guy. Somehow he got the 1911 bug (I think the Marine Corp purchase put him over the top). So he starts looking - trust me, this took awhile......so he researches a few months, then he starts asking me questions, researches some more.

    Many moons later he decides on Springfield, because he wants the purest 1911 and doesn't want Series 80, external extractor, etc.

    Buys a "loaded" one with a two piece full guide rod. Complains about having to wrench it. :banghead: He does like the Wilson Combat rod and will swap.
     
  5. Greg528iT

    Greg528iT Member

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    I agree. but more than once, here you here of those needing / wanting bushing wrenches.

    What you call carefull attention to detail, I call "using the only style screw available in 1911" As I said and feel free to look it up, the Philips and Allen style screws were NOT invented until decades later.
     
  6. bluekouki86

    bluekouki86 Member

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    I personally dislike and don't use FLGR for one reason. In a combat/defensive situation you may need to reload and chamber a fresh round with one hand if you are wounded. You can take the muzzle and push it against a table or other flat object and cycle the action. I know it is a stretch to ever need to do that, but a good buddy of mine was Marine Force Recon and taught me the trick. He lived by it in Iraq, so I will live by it here.
     
  7. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    The original grip screws for the 1911 had dished slots for better purchase by the case rims...and they matched the case rim radius. They weren't standard. That's the attention to detail I was referring to...and one that many people aren't even aware of because few manufacturers bother to make them like that any more.

    Another one is the sear and hammer pins that don't sit flush with the frame. I've heard reference to "poor quality control" on this, but what the complainers don't understand is that the pins are supposed to stand about .003 inch above the frame to give the thumb safety something to ride on...reducing both friction and eliminating scratching and marring of the frame.

    Ditto for the small fillet at the junction of the slidestop crosspin and arm...so that a very small gap is maintained between the slidestop and the frame.

    The small punch cut in the spring plug that allows the plug to be threaded onto the open end of the recoil spring to prevent launching to parts unknown.

    Then there's the left side grip panel that supports the plunger tube at the bottom and on the outside...fitting it closely when it's made to correct spec...keeping it from loosening and keeping it nailed tightly to the frame in case it does.

    So many little things that once were a part of making the 1911 what it was that are overlooked or skipped today for reasons of cutting corners or increasing the bottom line..or simply because they don't look closely or consider the reasons for them.

    Shall I continue?

    Details. The devil's in the details.
     
  8. Zach S

    Zach S Member

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    The only reason I would have a FLGR is if I used the frame to host a .22 conversion. A FLGR makes the recoil spring captive, so you can swap slides without having to keep up with (and possibly lose) parts. I have my conversion on a dedicated frame, so its not an issue for me.

    I agree with 1911Tuner. My FLGRs are either replaced or get cut down to GI length, and all of my bushing wrenches are still in the boxes the pistols came in.

    No, they aren't, not on the ones I've handled anyway. The FLGR in my 4" Kimber lasted until the first time I put a new recoil spring in it - then I swapped it out for a short one. My 3.5" Para also got a short guide rod, out of necessity and laziness. It unscrewed and fell out at the range, I didn't feel like digging through the brass to find it.

    They did look a little weird with the open spring plugs...
     
  9. Greg528iT

    Greg528iT Member

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    I did not know. I bet 99% here didn't. I was looking for a picture, and unfortunately by the 1930s, it looks like the Army dropped the dished screws

    [​IMG][/URL][/IMG]

    I TOTALLY agree, JMB did some AMAZING things when designing the 1911.. I love them, I own 4..

    So to address those that say it's not a 1911 if it's not per JMBs original design, we had better include any 1911 clone built after the 1930s since they obviously dropped the dished flat screw. :D :D
     
  10. moxie

    moxie Member

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    I've always used a case head to remove grip screws from 1911s. Learned that many moons ago. Why anyone would want a screw requiring them to bring an Allen or Torx wrench to the gunfight is beyond me.
     
  11. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    I have guns with both types. The guns I have with a FLGR don't need any special tools to fieldstrip them. As long as that is the case I could care less. I have purchased used 1911's in the past with aftermarket FLGR's that needed tools to fieldstrip the guns. I replaced those with a short GI type rod.
     
  12. Greg528iT

    Greg528iT Member

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    Who would want to replace grip panels in the middle of a gun fight???????????? If a grip panel came a tad loose I'd probably not even bother to snug it with a thumbnail in the middle of a fire fight. Most grips do not cover the MSH pin, but.. if I was worried about having to take that out during a gun fight, I'd not put grips on that covered it anyway. :D :D
     
  13. md2lgyk

    md2lgyk Member

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    I've had a 2-piece guide rod in my bullseye softball gun for over 20 years. It has never once started to come unscrewed. A solution looking for a problem? Perhaps. But competitive shooting (especially bullseye) is mostly a mind game. If you think something will make you shoot better, it just might.
     
  14. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Nope. My Remington Rand and the Union Switch twins have dished grip screws.

    I've heard a rumor...unsubstantiated...that Colt is going to use them on the new USMC pistol. I should know by this weekend unless Hunter catches a red-eye to California to go visit with the love of his life. I'll make a note of it if I find'em.

    I've also found dished screws on some 50s and early 60s commercial Government Models...likely leftover stock from the anticipated contract that never came.

    EDIT TO ADD:

    Out of curiosity, I just went and checked my 1973 production Combat Commander. The screw slots are dished.
     
  15. Greg528iT

    Greg528iT Member

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    I just went by the drawing.. dated 1936,, it shows a regular screw. I was not able to pull up the Screw - B19023 drawing to verify it's exact shape. Given the attention to detail JMB gave things, I was expecting the drawings to match.

    Nice.. I've still not seen one. :)
     
  16. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Again, there were a lot of little things that were included in the original design that made up the whole package...and many of them are overlooked...either purposely or simply because their purpose is misunderstood and/or considered unnecessary. You can probably include the dished screw slots in that category, though I like having the ability to use case rims to remove the grips, even though I never do it except for demonstration.

    A good example things forgotten is the left grip panel that supports the plunger tube on two axes. If that were still considered important and properly executed, reports of plunger tubes coming loose would be a rarity.
     
  17. Greg528iT

    Greg528iT Member

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    I'm not really picking on you, I wouldn't really dare.. I'm just playing devils advocate over all the OTHER people who jump up and down about, "if it's not exactly how JMB designed it it's not a true 1911"

    The wood grips I've made for my 1911 clones.. all cover the plunger tube. Not that I am worried it will come loose, but it just looks weird if I don't.
     
  18. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Ah! But do they solidly support it at the bottom and on the outside? Many new grips cover it, but don't support it.

    Properly within spec, you should have to apply light prying force to get the left side panel off due to being captive by the bushings and the plunger tube.
     
  19. Greg528iT

    Greg528iT Member

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    No they are close, a couple thousands away.. but again I don't do it to support the tube, I'm not worried the tube will pop off. AND.. I don't oversize the bushing holes like new production grips do. The grips I make slightly press fit onto the bushing.. but that's more a case of having found exactly the right sized bit to make the counter bore. If the nominal size bit was a tad looser, I'd have used it.

    I expect that "if in the heat of a firefight" AND my grip screws came loose AND my plunger tube popped off. My slide may or may not lock back at the end of a magazine (clip :) ) but then I'd be out of ammo and either out of the fight anyway. If I survive, I'd return to my shop to re peen the tube back on and take off and return the grip screws with my either torq, allen or gun smith quality flat screw driver. :D
     
  20. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Missed the point...
     
  21. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Anyhoo...Back to the topic.

    The conversation went a little like this:

    "What's so bad about a FLGR?"

    *shrug* "Nothin'."

    "Well, then...What's so GOOD about a FLGR?"

    *shrug* "Nothin'."

    "Then what's it for?"

    *shrug* "I dunno. To sell?"
     
  22. Greg528iT

    Greg528iT Member

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    A little more like this

    Some say.. it's HARDER to field strip. Some say it's the same level of difficulty.
    Some say.. I can't press it against a table edge to load a round single handed.
    I say.. if you gotta do it one handed.. use the rear sight as the hook.

    controlling the spring by the ID has more control. Yes the spring at full compression is fully contained by a short rod, but it's the initial 1/8" - 1/2" of travel that the dust shield can allow some buckling of the spring. Is it a big deal? Well probably not for us casual shooters. It certainly doesn't hurt anything.
    A FLGR does add a tad of weight to the barrel end. We all know weight out front helps with getting back on target.

    For FUN. For the heck of it. To make your gun more like the Pro Race gun drivers. Like NASCAR.. what wins on Sunday sells on Monday. Hype? maybe.. for us casual shooters sure.. I'll bet big bucks the Pro Race gun drivers put nothing on / in their gun that does not speed them up.

    That's where I got off a little on the JMB track. So what if JMB didn't design it that way. He didn't design the Commander either. 2 of my FLGR are in Commander length guns.
     
  23. BigG

    BigG Member

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    You said it, Tuner!
     
  24. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    The point isn't to remove the grip screws with the case rims. Nor is the purpose of the small pad thumb safety to open the tool box. Nor is it to rack the slide on a table or by hooking the rear sight on a belt.

    The point is to have the ability to do so should it become necessary. Semper Paratus, I always say. With a range toy or a safe queen, it makes no never mind. If you take the pistol along on bumpy, dirty outings...it can make the difference between having a functional weapon and a dead weight to be dragged along for the ride. I give such things a lot of consideration. Sgt. Murphy has a way of spoiling the show at the worst possible times.

    But...we pays our money and we makes our choices. It's what makes the world go 'round.

    And, I've spent a lotta money on fun that I'd love to have back right now. Oh, yes! A lot of money.
     
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