Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by The Exile, May 8, 2015.
I have several 1911s. I don't carry any of them, but I love to shoot them all.
Whatever. If you had told me in 78 when I bought a new Colt Gov in .45ACP and had some mods done to, and did carry it for years, that the 1911 would be where it is today..... I would not have believed you.
When the one 800 pound Gorilla, S&W, started making them I think one of the gun rags had one on the cover with the caption "Hell Froze Over". Then years later, about 2011, the other 800 pound Gorilla Ruger started making them.
These days I carry a Colt Commander but every time I go into a gunstore I am still amazed at the brands and variations of the basic 1911 design.
An 800lb gorilla would be morbidly obese. These folklore gorillas keep getting bigger all the time.
That said, Larry Vickers would be an alpha gorilla (whatever size you want to assign) in the world of firearms training, gunsmithing, and gunfighting.
That first part was mostly a joke anyway. I say mostly because not being an outright shill doesn't mean that his friendship couldn't create a conflict of interests when it comes to recommending 1911s.
As to Glock VS RIA, they're both way more reliable than detractors of either would be willing to admit. Of course, all 1911-patterns have the disadvantage of a large variety of magazine makers, which causes the VAST majority of malfunctions. Blaming a gun because someone uses mags that aren't correct is like blaming an engine when you install a valve that's too small.
Anyway, like I said in a previous post, I'm not actually disagreeing with Larry and Co. Getting into 1911-patterns at this point in time does require a certain level of expertise and armorer skills because there are so many sub-standard 1911-pattern pistols and accessories on the market. I'd say 8/10 manufacturers require you to either know how to identify and fix problems or know to avoid them in the first place if you want them to do any heavy lifting. That being said, the design isn't the problem, it's the fact that manufacturers are building the design poorly.
Are we discussing handguns or hero worship?
Just because someone has an opinion with a bit of experience behind it doesn't make them infallible. I happen to disagree with him, based on my experiences. Frankly, the causes of 1911 problems are corner cutting in manufacture and outright laziness in the shooting public.
And just because someone has some experience and an opinion doesn't mean they aren't just chasing a dollar. Glock is writing his meal ticket right now. Do you honestly think he's going to give a solid endorsement for anything else? Remember back when the AWB hit and everyone went back to the 1911? Guess who cashed in on that market?
I've got nothing against him. If a guy can make a buck, go for it. It's just a little funny to watch grown men act like third graders meeting Superman.
Piffle, I say.
There will probably be a 1911 variant on board when our interplanetary starships land in another galaxy.
when is obsolete , obsolete ?.
If it's still in production ( although not in original configuration exactly ) isn't it current ?.,,,,,,,,
Did you miss my post with his thoughts on Glocks? Go back to post 48 if you did. I think it's hard to claim he unfairly praises them. He answers questions on M4Carbine, and he usually seems pretty candid. I can't recall which pistol it was for (maybe VP9 or PPQ), but he basically said it was a great gun, maybe even better than a Glock, but at the end of the day, most his students shoot Glocks and he sells Glock parts, so he'll likely go back to shooting Glocks. He didn't dance around it. I don't worship Vickers by any means, but I think it is a little unjust to paint him as flapping with the breeze (or cash flow).
What I see is:
He built and sold 1911s and continues to teach shooting and gunsmithing of them, but he's forthright about his opinions on their shortcomings.
He pimps Glocks and makes his own parts for them, but only really recommends them in 9mm.
He helped design the HK45 but has openly complained about how they ruined the grip design on the fullsize.
Seems to me like a guy who realistically is calling them like he sees them. It isn't like he's trying to claim a certain brand to be perfect and everything else to be junk.
I just LOVE how so many people use the phrase "well tuned" instead of "built to spec".
^^ We need a "LIKE" button. ^^
What if Mossberg said the 500 now required a 500 round break in period? But people are fine with it when the firearm in question costs at least twice what a reliable 500 goes for.
Everybody talks about Hi-Point being ugly, top-heavy and in general cheap. But baseball bat reliable. Dan Wesson can't build a pistol better than Hi-Point? I'm being sarcastic, but the point stands.
I can appreciate a 1911, but it is like talking to Harley guys.
At IDPA, when they have a failure, they all say the same thing, "it's never done that before!" When they have a problem, it is NEVER the fault of the gun. "It was a failure to feed; it was a failure to eject; it must have been a light load; it was a bad mag; I limp wristed it; the extractor is weak; I didn't have time to clean it; my gunsmith didn't fix it right.........". It is NEVER the fault of the gun.
If I take ten 1911's from the same maker and 10 G17's and strip them all and mix them in separate 5 gallon buckets and have to stake my life on the one first one of each I put back together which one should I choose?
I'd choose the one on my hip that I DIDN'T strip down, because really...who strips down EVERYTHING they own at the same time, right?
Thats a pretty common phenomenon across all platforms..
Believe little of what you read in print, or on the Internet or see on TV. Believe more of what you learn when you go out to the LGR & figure things out for yourself & draw your own conclusions.
I have a Gen4 Glock 21 and it is a great shooter, hits a target very well with cheaper aluminum and steel case ammo. My Dan Wesson Valor is a better range gun, but I feed it better quality ammo. If I shoot better ammo out of the 21 alongside the DW, I can still shoot tighter groups with the Dan. You can argue 13 vs. 8 round capacity, but it's easier to carry extra 1911 mags vs. extra G-21 mags.
I guess a whole lot of people just like to buy guns with an outdated design.
In my opinion, there's only 2 fighting pistols. The 1911 and the Glock. Everything else is a step behind. I love my 1911's for what they are.
When we toss some 4x4 blocks out in the field for targets at 35 yards. My 1911's are consistently getting hits first, and moving the blocks the most. But I CCW my Glock 23 most of the time, and with some work, the G23 keeps up with my 1911's quite well. It's a $900+ Glock at that point though. Let's face it, the Glock is the first, and only, pistol since the 1911 that is truly as iconic and excellent as the 1911 was/is.
Vickers makes some good points.
The 1911 is a PITA. Wrong mags or ammo or lube, and it ain't going to run. It's an experienced shooters pistol. If you aren't going to invest the time, then this isn't the pistol for you. You can't say this is an easy gun to own and run, that's just a lie. Do your homework, get a good one. Don't be cheap. Then a 1911 may work for you. But a 1911 can't compete on the "cheap and easy" scale with a Glock.
And if we average out the quality of ALL the 1911's on the market. Then we get a piss poor average for reliability. Dan Wesson, Les Baer, Wilson, Guncrafter, and Ed Brown make excellently reliable 1911's. But that's only 1% of the 1911's out there. The rest are pitiful Lorcin quality Kimbers, Para Ord, and Springfields. So, it is fair to say that the 1911 is one of the least reliable guns out there and a PITA. On average that's true. Give an experienced shooter a DW or LB, and it isn't true.
A modern 1911 would be sweet. Put a Glock 21 style ramped barrel and a Glock magazine in a 1911. Huge improvement right there.
Did you seriously compare Springfield to Lorcin?
How's the view from your high horse?
The beauty of a free marketplace is that it dictates what's needed or wanted and what isn't. The fact that 1911's are still being produced and in high demand is your answer. If they do become outdated, we'll know as the demand for them will be minimal or cease to exist entirely.
I own 3 1911's, as well as Glocks, Springfields, CZ's, Rugers, FNS's, S&W's and Sigs. They're all fantastic and serve a purpose, whether it's CC, HD or range guns.
There are better designs that are more reliable and efficient. But the 1911 is a gorgeous handgun and great fun to shoot. I guess it depends what you mean by "outdated". In the right hands, they're still very effective.
The view is great. My 1911 runs as reliably as a Glock, and my horse says hi. YMMV, but I'll never waste ammo on a cheaper 1911 ever again.
1911 is as relevant today as it was a hundred years ago. It was a gun ahead of it's time then, and still quite relevant today. I'm a Glock man myself, but would not hesitate to rely on the 1911.
Not perfect, but far from irrelevant. Anyone who thinks it's irrelevant doesn't know guns.
It may not be as light and it may take a bit more to get one tuned just right. It may be marginally slower in a speed shooting contest.
But it'll still put fast, accurate and 8 nearly 1/2 holes in people, without reloading, as fast as that trigger can operate.
Compare that with a modern slim .45, like a Sig. They are nearly identical.
Is it a real Colt? Or is it an imitation built by someone else?
Note: Colt isn't responsible for guns they didn't make.
That includes 1911s built by a US Government contractor for the US military, or built by Colt licensees. Not Colt's problem there, either.
People stick "1911" on an awful lot of guns, but that's like hating on Glocks because you didn't like an S&W Sigma.
My view of Larry Vickers is that he "knows his onions". I respect his view, especially after he mentioned he had an M1 carbine that shot high. Mine shoots a foot high at 100 yards. When I decided to buy a bottom feeder, I got a Sig P226 in 9mm. Then I discovered CZ, then EAA, then Tanfoglio, and along the way I picked up a Springfield Armory Mil Spec 1911. The point is that I don't think the 1911 is dated, just evolved into a zillion varieties. Each of my guns mostly fills my like of fine machinery. The 1911 for me is representative of fine design. The others do the same. You gotta have a 1911 if only to say you have one, besides they are fun to shoot. Amen.
"If you actually shoot one and decide you don't like it, fine. But the notion that it's obsolete is foolishness"
Thanks 1911 Guy. I may be quoting you again.
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