1911 Noob Questions

[Abe]

My next handgun purchase will be a 1911. I’m leaning towards a Kimber Stainless II or a Royal II and I have a few questions about 1911’s in general and Kimber specifically.

1) Is there a difference between 45 Colt and 45 ACP? What does ACP stand for?
2) In Kimber’s current catalog they make the following statement: “Today, the only other American 1911 maker has all but stopped production and the importers are scrambling to make their guns look like a Kimber.†Is this true or is it just marketing blather?
3) Are there other manufacturers to consider? I’m looking to stay in the $700-$850 zone.
4) Other than appearance, should you always go with stainless if possible?

Thanks,

Abe

 

[Detritus]

i'll take a stab at this

1. 45 colt can mean either "45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol)" or the old ".45 Colt aka .45 Long colt" the round designed for the colt 1873 Single Action Army (the gun every gunslinger from TV had)

2. marketing blather, my reaction to this was "what has kimber been smoking!!" there is WAY more than one other US 1911 maker. in fact i believe that Kimber is getting their raw castings adn forgings from one of them.... S&W!! they are trying to make a shot at Colt here, taking advantage of the fact that untill Smith came on the scene with THEIR 1911 a few months back Kimber and Colt were the "high profile" US made brands. and they're making them selves look REAL stupid. Even High Standard has gotten into the US made 1911 market (guys at the corporate offices say everyting is US origin)


3. within that price bracket i'd get the kimber, i don't like colt (personal experience, colts are allergic to me, i touch em and they break out in a rash of failures). and i don't know enough about the other makers that have guns in that price range (i like mil-spec style guns more than the fancy versions) but your experience and certainly those of others here may/will differ.

4. SS is a personal preference, i like it on some guns but MY preference on a 1911 is blued on a comercial style gun and parked on GI style. plus all my gun purchases have to meet with the aproval of "she who i place above all else" and she doesn't like Stainless (reminds her of the cheesy chromed pot metal toys from her childhood).

SS offers some advantages if you are not going to be able to be fastitious about keeping the gun, clean and/or wiped down, or it's going to be constantly exposed to harsh conditions, etc. but for a day to day "range and occasional match" gun it's more of an appearance and "price point" thing.


ok that's MY take on all that. other may say that i'm wrong about some of it, i don't know. i can only pass on the info that I have. good luck ever how you go.

 

[gk1]

Detritus said almost exactly what I was going to say, but he said it first.

The only thing I'd add is that in addition to Colt and Kimber (I'm unhappy with Kimber's current products, though it's more for personal reasons than an indictment of their quality), I'd suggest you look at Springfield Armory and Dan Wesson. I haven't heard anything bad about the Dan Wesson line, but it's pretty new. All of these manufacturers (and probably some others) are arguably the best mass producers of 1911-style pistols, depending on who's doing the arguing.

George

 

[M1911]

1. 45 colt can mean either "45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol)" or the old ".45 Colt aka .45 Long colt" the round designed for the colt 1873 Single Action Army (the gun every gunslinger from TV had)

I haven't ever heard of anyone refer to .45 ACP as ".45 Colt." .45 Colt is a rimmed design, dating way back. It has a very large case capacity, as it was designed in the days of black powder. .45 ACP is a much shorter cartridge than .45 Colt.

 

[Sven]

Nobody asked me, but I'd recommend you try to find a Valtro .... what an amazing piece.

 

[StressPuppy]

Abe,

I purchased a Kimber SS Pro Carry about a year ago after going through what I am sure you are agonizing over right now. Let me see if I can answer some of your questions, and then give you my opinion:

1) Yes. 45 Colt, sometimes thought of as 45 Long Colt, is a rimmed cartridge and is longer in length. It is usually found in cowboy-action matches in revolvers, though some rifles use it too. I am not exactly sure what ACP stands for (Automatic Cartridge Pistol??), but it is a rimless cartridge that will feed through the autos.

2) Probably marketing hype.

3) I have been told that Springfield makes a good 1911, but I am somewhat biased towards my Kimber.

4) SS is a preference. It is said to last longer, but a well-blued gun, taken care of, will last longer than you or me. SS is a little more obvious when you try to carry, so most people opt for blued so it "hides" better. Both will show holster wear, just in different ways. My Kimber has the bead-blasted finish, so wear spots will show as slightly shiny spots and may not be that visible. Blued guns will show holster wear by having less or no bluing in the wear spots. Both can be touched up, but most will tell you to just leave them alone. Besides, it will take LOTS of in and out of the holster before you notice anything. Think duty gun for a police officer.


As I mentioned, I agonized over Kimber and Springfield (didn't want to spend the money for a Wilson or Les Baer). I had lots of input from different forums, but in the end, I had to come up with what I was comfortable with. I bought the Kimber and I have never looked back and never had a regret.

My Kimber was VERY accurate out of the box and flawless (and still is, a couple thousand rounds later). I have had absolutely no problems with it and the only things I have done is put smooth wood grips on it (came with checkered rubber ones) and put a mag well flare (I use it in IDPA, so speed reloads are important). I use Chip McCormick 8 round mags and they are also flawless. Everything about the gun shows the care and pride Kimber has about their guns. The trigger is short and crisp. Finish is top notch. If I am not mistaken, Kimber uses high quality Chip McCormick internal parts, which are already proven and sought after on the upgrade side of things. Basically, you get a very accurate, semi-custom gun at much lower than custom prices. I would highly recommend any of their standard 1911 style guns (I don't have any experience with the polymer frame ones).

As for Springfield, they make good guns too. I don't have much experience with them, but I simply like the Kimber better.

Hope I have helped some and not added confusion!

 

[Prof]

Abe:

Most of the above I agree with, too.

1. ACP does stand for Automatic Colt Pistol. It and the 45 Colt are, in fact, two completely different cartridges and are not interchangeable..

2. Marketing hype. Although Kimber does make a quality firearm.

3. Other good 1911's are produced by Colt and Springfield. I can't attest to the quality of the others but have also heard good things about the Dan Wessons.

4. Both my 1911's are blued because I like the look of a blued pistol. Stainless does seem to wear better and is also very attractive. It's a matter of personal preference.

Good luck! You will love the 1911. If I could keep only one handgun out of my collection, it would be one of the 1911's.

 

[M1911]

I am not exactly sure what ACP stands for (Automatic Cartridge Pistol??)

Automatic Colt Pistol

 

[Smoke]

Kimber, Springfield, Older Colts are all excellent weapons.

Some one on another thread said "I wouldn't walk across the street to pee on a Colt". I kinda have to agree. I hear hteir new stuff is better, I can't say.

I have no experience with Dan Wesson or S&W, Valtro is nice.

Springfield is knocking off Kimbers CDP line.

SS is my material of choice. Takes a little more abuse and I use my guns. BUt a nice blued 1911 is a thing of beauty.

 

[ruger357]

Have had a few Kimbers. Right now I have the Ultra Carry. I have had vey good luck with them.

 

[Detritus]

my above comment on "45 colt"

guys there ARE some folk out there who think that 45 colt = .45 ACP...... guy that walked into my local gun shop while i was there yesterday amoung them. guy was looking for a marlin camp gun in .45acp and asked about "the marlin in .45colt" didn't even know that the "long colt" round existed.

many of the younger crowd (of whom i am part so i can say so ) that were never exposed to as many westerns. are unaware that there even IS a .45 cal colt round other than the ACP. many think that a "colt 45" is either a 1911 or a 40oz bottle of malt liquor!!! remember that right now, even majority of the SAA clones in the stores are in .357 or .44 mag.

because of all this one of the shops i frequent has the staff trained to ask any customer asking for "45 colt" ammo, that they don't KNOW to be an owner of a .45 LONG Colt firearm, if he or she means .45LC or .45 ACP.

now that said the mix up is NOT common amoung folks like us, ie those who love, adore, study, and in some cases worship firearms. but the mix up exists.

 

[meathammer]

I only own one 1911. A Springfield loaded. Mine has been very reliable and fun to shoot. (I bought the O.D. green Armory Kote version.) One can be had in your price range. I'm not downplaying any of the others. Look at all of them and compare. I noticed the Springfields tend to be a little heavier than some of the Kimbers, for example. I haven't handled one personally, but I've heard the new S&W 1911 is a nice one also.

 

[Boats]

My Springer may look like certain Kimbers, (with the merciful exception of the sissified roll mark), but thank God it isn't designed like one. (No Scwartz crapola.)

BTW, my carry Colt Officer's Model has never failed with non-Blazer ammo, and lo and behold, its maker is still in business and not producing Schwartz crud either.

 

[Abe]

Thanks for all the information. I'm going to take a look at the offerings from Springfield.

Thanks for the clarification on 45ACP vs 45 Colt.

Boats: What's "Schwartz crud"?

Thanks,

Abe

 

[StressPuppy]

Abe,

Just be fair to yourself and look at the Kimbers and the new Colts as well. Many (myself included) have given you our opinions on the guns. And you know what they say about opinions........

I chose Kimber, as I mentioned earlier, but I think all of them are fine weapons. I a few people with Springfields and only one has had any problems (it was a ported version; he sent it back and they fixed the problems he was having and sent it back, no questions, no charge). I have not met anybody with a Kimber that has had any problems. The one person that I do know that has both a Kimber and a Springfield has said that he prefered his Kimber "out of the box" for accuracy and reliability.

In the case of Kimber and Springfield, I know that they will stand behind their guns and work with you on any questions and problems that you might have (rare as they may be). Can't say for Colt as I have no experience. This is a very important aspect of buying a gun, as you probably know.

Have fun and enjoy!!!! Nothing like the feel of a finely crafted 1911 in your hand, especially when it goes BANG!!

 

[Sisco]

Schwartz crud:
The Kimber series II guns have a "Schwartz" safety that blocks the firing pin. Lots of debate about it causing problems or not.
Try http://www.1911forum.com/forums/ and run a search for series II or schwartz. You'll probably find more info than you need.

I just bought my first 1911, a Kimber Custom II. I've got about 700 rounds through it and couldn't be happier with my decision.

 

[caz223]

A lot of people here can better respond to your question than I.
But since you asked, I'll throw my .02 in.
Of 1911 pattern guns of current manufacture, I'd only consider a few brands.
1. valtro
2. dan wesson
3. S&W
4. colt
in that order.
I'd take a used kimber over a new one.
Kimber made some fine guns, no doubt about that.
I don't think they are as good as they were when they first came out. And the price has gone up. Lots.
Dan Wesson's reputation as an established wheelgun maker, and an up-and-coming 1911 maker is rather impressive.
I have a few DWs and I've always been happy with them over the years.
The only guns I would buy from S&W are wheelguns, 1911 pattern (Including almost-1911 PC 945), and performance center stuff. Maybe a chief special 9mm, I don't know.
If you can find a good colt, they're really good. But they make a good one, then a bad one, no rhyme or reason.
And valtro, what more can be said. Bring money.

 

[Abe]

Thanks again for all the great information. I got pre-approval from my better half last night. I "let" her shoot my P-99 (40S&W) this past weekend and now all of a sudden she's become rather possesive of it. She say's she likes it and doesn't want to be without it so we need to have two and I should get my own. I had to use a little sweet talk to get the $$ increase for a 1911 over a P-99. I think I'm going to take her to the range again this weekend and let her shoot some more!!

Now where'd I put that lottery ticket....

- Abe

 

[Abe]

Just plunked down the cash for a new Custom II.

Test drove a Stainless II. WOW!!! Unbelievable gun. Very smooth. Very nice. I like it better than my P-99! Ended up going with the Custom II as I didn't like the appearance of the stainless. Granted it was a rent-a-gun and has alot of range miles on it but it just didn't look as nice as the black of the Custom II. After doing some more research I was prepared to go for a Custom TLE II but the wait is out to 6 weeks (not to mention the money.) I can live without the additional checkering and will get to the night sights eventually.

Now that I'm in the 1911 game, I have a few noob owner questions:

1) Magazines. Which ones are best? Stay with Kimber or other there other options?

2) Grips. What are some good sources for cool wood grips?

Thanks for all the help,

Abe

 

[cratz2]

One clarfication, I think the designer of the 'bad safety' spelled his name Swartz but it is incorrectly spelled Schwartz enough that you should search for both.

The 1911Forum is a very good resource but you should do some searching before asking basic questions. That forum is a wee bit less tolerant of newbies asking newbie questions than THR. But I love both of them.

Personally, I like the most recent offerings from Springfield. Assuming we're talking about the ones with more custom touches (they call it the Loaded) they will have an ambidexterous thumb safety. There are a few other changes but this is the most easily noticable. I've own several 1911s and have owned more in the past and I am completely happy with this one. I replaced the mainspring housing (which comes with an undesirable locking system) with a Wilson and new internals and the trigger pull dropped to right around 2.5 lbs. I had to have a local guy round the adjustable sights a bit as they were to sharp to carry but other than these $100 in mods, I am utterly 100% happy and cannot imagine a better 1911 for the $760 I have invested in this one.

I've generally had good experiences with Colts and Kimbers as well. The newer rollmarked Colt 1911 generally are praised and I have a 1991A1 which is considered pretty the worst of the guns they ever built. It is my second favorite 1911. I bought it used in 1993, I think. It had a few bobbles with HP ammo. I don't know how many rounds I put through it as I bought it before I started keeping track of such things. At the time, I generally thought that HydraShoks were the best HP ammo and it fed those just fine with zero failures with them. Eventually I had a well known smith swap out some parts, do a trigger job and do a bit of reliability work on it and it's been 100% with everything including my preferred 200 Gr Gold Dots which are one of the more difficult bullets to feed.

Hope this helps and doesn't confuse you more. Check out the 1911forum, lurk there for a couple days and use that search function. You'll benefit from it.

 

[Al Thompson]

Magazines - Wilson-Rodgers or McCormick Shooting Stars have worked best for me and several longtime 1911 shooting buddies.

 

[cratz2]

Disregard my last post as I didn't realize you had already made a decision.

For mags, I'd go with stainless Wilson 7 rounders or Chip McCormick 8 rounder Power Mags, not Shooting Stars. They've been fine too but are not of the quality as the Wilsons and Power Mags. Three good mags should be plenty. Never used the mags that came with either of my Kimbers, because I already had other quality mags.

For grips, check out eBay, type in '1911 grips' in the search field. www.pickagrip.com also has a good selection and you can see the actual grips you will receive. Some folks like things like carbon fiber grips (skunk) and G-10 (me) Also linen micarta is a new up and coming material that looks a bit like G-10.

You could also check out my photo album. If you like any of them, I'll tell you where I got them.

Here's an example of the G-10.

 

[Croyance]

As for #2 Springfield Armory imports their frames from Brazil, IIRC.
Valtro, while they seem to have quality product, is Italian. They are also not a major manufacturer by volume.
Dan Wesson, Wilson, Les Baer, et. al. do not individually have major volume.