1911 Reliability for Self Defense?

[Deanimator]

I've had four M1911s in a configuration relevant to the conversation:

1. Colt Series 70 - My first handgun purchased in 1979. When I bought it, it would feed the Speer "flying ashtrays", but not 230gr. ball. When it broke in after a few hundred rounds, it would fire everything from 180gr. LSWC bullseye handloads to 230gr. ball. It was certainly reliable enough for me to carry on the DMZ in Korea. When I was XO of a basic training company at Ft. Knox, they withdrew all of our .45 ball without immediately issuing replacements. We were given the choice as pay officers, until ammo was issued, to either carry M16A1s or our own handguns and ammunition. I carried the Series 70 loaded with VERY hot handloads using the 200gr. Hornady "Combat/Target" JSWC. The gun is now my wadcutter gun with a dot sight on it.
2. Springfield GI M1911 - Bought from a friend. - It was the stock early blued gun with the lousy GI sights. I replaced the sights with bullseye iron sights (Bomar). It's my hardball gun. I'd carry it as a holster gun if necessary.
3. Norinco "Model of the M1911" - Bought from a friend. The small interior parts were pure garbage. The leaf spring wasn't even finished. When removed, it was bright red with rust. The guy who worked on my guns replaced the small parts (including the hammer and trigger) and it was utterly reliable. I'd stack the slide barrel and frame up against anything Colt's made in the last forty years. I sold it to pay the rent when I was laid off.
4. Citadel 3.5CS 3 1/2" M1911 - My current carry gun. It reliably misfeeds with the OEM magazines loaded to capacity. Loaded with one round less, it's completely reliable. I replaced the OEM magazines with McCormicks and now it's 100% reliable with anything from 200gr. bullseye handloads to 230gr. ball. My carry load is 200gr. Speer Gold Dots or 200gr. Hornady XTP. It's got the best out of the box trigger of any M1911 I've ever owned.

My Christmas bonus is probably going to go to a nickel (or bright stainless) M1911 in .38 Super. I'm leaning toward Iver Johnson, but haven't come to a firm decision. If nothing worthwhile turns up at the next two local gun shows, I'll have to order whatever I decide on.

 

[OARNGESI]

Every 1911 I ever owned has been great or obviously defective immediately

 

[cw308]

Fisherman12
I feel your frustration , you didn't give up for sure . Talk about bad luck with 1911's Hopefully the next one will be the prize . I know a 1911 shooter that shot over 2000 rounds and he says he hasn't really cleaned it except running a few patches through the barrel , and shoots tight groups . I don't think he's BS en me , guess some guys are just lucky . Hopefully 1911's takes a turn for you , anyway , Have a Happy & Healthy New Year .
PS
Hope when ever they shoot you hit what your aiming at or that's a double whammy, hang in there. Just thought of something not trying to be funny but you my be a limp wrister , are you a reloader. Just trying to cover all bases

Chris

 

[cfullgraf]

Except it is, and organizations all over the world have mean round count reliability requirements for any firearm they adopt.

Right, the various organizations put several examples of the guns they are interested in through their trial procedures and then pick the model/design that does the best.

They do not run every pistol through the mega-round trial.

 

[Walkalong]

I had a 1911 at the range last week that went down on me because of the cold weather and not being cleaned in awhile. I had to field strip it, clean it and oil the slide to get it to run. They take a lot more maintenance, it's just a fact. I really can't imagine having to use one in combat unless the tolerances were extremely loose. The one that choked on me had a very tight slide to frame fit. Not good for carry.

Tight frame 1911s can run just fine, but they have to be clean and oiled. Not good for carry? I'd have to agree if they are too tight. Does it means 1911s need more maintenance than other guns? No, they all need to be cleaned and oiled (Especially oiled) from time to time. Super tight target guns were never meant for carry.

But I'm all for people not liking 1911s, it means more for us that do.

Has never failed, have no idea how many rounds over the last 30+ years. It will feed empty brass, SWCs. HPs, whatever.

 

[Walkalong]

When I bought it, it would feed the Speer "flying ashtrays",

I had forgotten all about those, but I shot a bunch of them through my old Springfield.

 

[Walkalong]

Also has never failed, but not nearly the round count as the 5" SA. Over 2K though. I did replace the thumb safety and slide stop with Wilson products. Modded the thumb safety to replicate the old Commander thumb safety look, and bead blasted both parts to match the gun.

 

[tarosean]

Right, the various organizations put several examples of the guns they are interested in through their trial procedures and then pick the model/design that does the best.

They do not run every pistol through the mega-round trial.

Nor do civilians need to be offensive and attack

 

[CoalTrain49]

Tight frame 1911s can run just fine, but they have to be clean and oiled. Not good for carry? I'd have to agree if they are too tight. Does it means 1911s need more maintenance than other guns? No, they all need to be cleaned and oiled (Especially oiled) from time to time. Super tight target guns were never meant for carry.

But I'm all for people not liking 1911s, it means more for us that do.

Has never failed, have no idea how many rounds over the last 30+ years. It will feed empty brass, SWCs. HPs, whatever.
View attachment 818768

Yeah, this one is too tight. It's not a target pistol, just a run of the mill Colt gov't model. Never seen a production pistol this tight, feels like a new Baer. I also had Tetra gun grease on the slide. Don't use that stuff in cold weather (below freezing) no matter what they claim. I have several 1911's including a Gold Cup. None of them even close to this tight slide/frame fit. She's a shooter though.

 

[jeepnik]

Nor do civilians need to be offensive and attack

Then again I recall this tower in Texas. Yes I know it was a LEO that ended it. But armed civilians assisted him.

 

[Deanimator]

Nor do civilians need to be offensive and attack

In general, no. But that's subject to change.

At the Bataclan, in the Pulse Nightclub, or in London, an "attack" could hardly have made things worse.

Waiting for the police to "protect" you during a terrorist attack is pretty much like lying down on busy railroad tracks and staring at your watch. Broward County demonstrated the same thing about a non-ideological active shooter situation.

 

[rskent]

The current Colt 1991 Gov't Model I have has had 4 malfunctions in the (approximately) 4000 rounds I've shot out of it using Speer Lawman 230gr ball in Wilson Combat 47D magazines. 2 of the malfunctions simply left the empty case of the last round on top of the follower (with the slide locking back as normal), 1 was a misfeed, and 1 was a stovepipe.

All of which you can (might) blame on your Wilson 47D’s. A lot of people love these magazines, and if I am being honest, so do I. But that plastic follower may not be your friend. The first two malfunctions are straight inertia feeds. Front heavy bullets and weak magazine springs helped by slippery plastic followers. The last two can (but maybe not) also be caused by the rounds sliding out of the magazine and getting in the way of feeding and extracting. I think if it were me I would get some different magazines. Or keep the Wilson tubes and pick up some new springs. Or even better springs and a pimpled metal followers.

I also hesitate to say it, but here we go “Limp Wristing”

 

[BILLG]

Forget about carrying the 1911 they are not for everyone.

 

[Fisherman12]

Hope when ever they shoot you hit what your aiming at or that's a double whammy, hang in there. Just thought of something not trying to be funny but you my be a limp wrister , are you a reloader. Just trying to cover all bases

I shoot the 1911 better than anything else. It's like a laser. Everything about it is utterly perfect except for my experience with reliability. As for limp wristing, I highly doubt it. Glocks are much more prone to limpwristing and I've never had that happen over tens of thousands of rounds. Same with Sigs, HKs, and Rugers (though not as many rounds through those as a Glock) in .45 Auto and 9mm. My hold on pistols is certainly sturdy. I would actually prefer it to be a limpwristing problem, because that's not a problem with the gun, but I severely doubt that's the case.

All of which you can (might) blame on your Wilson 47D’s. A lot of people love these magazines, and if I am being honest, so do I. But that plastic follower may not be your friend. The first two malfunctions are straight inertia feeds. Front heavy bullets and weak magazine springs helped by slippery plastic followers. The last two can (but maybe not) also be caused by the rounds sliding out of the magazine and getting in the way of feeding and extracting. I think if it were me I would get some different magazines. Or keep the Wilson tubes and pick up some new springs. Or even better springs and a pimpled metal followers.

I've often wondered if the magazines could be the culprit. Wilsons are supposed to be one of the best, but I do find the magazine spring to be rather light. These are all 8 round magazines. Are the 7 round magazines any better in this regard? I'd happily give up a round for 100% reliability.

 

[RA40]

Been an interesting thread and insightful. My take it that this is an individualistic situation that may not cross into being a possibility. As much as we want and work towards, this may not be one to come to reality. There's no reason that this shouldn't and there are many examples of them working for others yet there are failures too so a coin toss. That small percentage of failure for CCW has some doubt so in that instance this 1911 may not be the one. Are there other 1911's out there that will fulfill, have to find it.

As a side note, the Sig 1911 Target has run well since the first shot. Runs a variety of mags from Shooting Star, Wilson 47's the cheap bargin box 7 round gun show mags, etc. Has been able to feed what I've run through it so far.

The Speer-CCI "ashtray" is this one right? After that mention went looking to see if my memory was intact.

 

[Texas10mm]

I've got one 1911 that doesn't like Wilson 47D mags. The rounds nosedive. Same mag and same ammo works fine in the rest of my 1911 pistols. Yet other mags work just fine in the picky gun.

 

[rskent]

As for limp wristing, I highly doubt it.

Me too.

 

[jmorris]

I'm close to giving up on having a 1911 I consider reliable enough for self defense, as much as I love it. Does anyone have a 1911 that has gone at least 2000 rounds (assuming normal cleaning/maintenance) without a stoppage of any kind? Would I have to get something like a $3000 Wilson Combat to obtain a 1911 that reliable?

From all of my 1911’s and 2011’s, I see the mags as the key to reliability more often than not, assuming you are feeding it good ammunition.

Long ago I adopted the habit of seeing what mag they would feed an empty case with rightoutof the box. Once you figure that out the rest gets pretty easy.

 

[Fisherman12]

My Colt 1991 feeds empty cases flawlessly from the Wilson 47D's, just checked.
Maybe I should try some Tripp Research 7 rounders and shoot another 1000 rounds.

 

[JTQ]

I've often wondered if the magazines could be the culprit. Wilsons are supposed to be one of the best, but I do find the magazine spring to be rather light. These are all 8 round magazines. Are the 7 round magazines any better in this regard? I'd happily give up a round for 100% reliability.

Wilson full size 47, 7 rounders, "the Gold Standard".

Jason Burton on using a 1911. Skip to about the 3:05 mark



Vickers and Hackathorn on Wilson Combat. Skip to about the :50 mark.

 

[tarosean]

Then again I recall this tower in Texas. Yes I know it was a LEO that ended it. But armed civilians assisted him.

With rifles not handguns. Gone are the days of Trucks with rifle racks too.

 

[jmorris]

In Austin at least...

 

[cfullgraf]

These are all 8 round magazines. Are the 7 round magazines any better in this regard? I'd happily give up a round for 100% reliability.

I have a few 8 round, grip length magazines for my 45 ACP pistols but I do not trust them. I've not had a problem with them but I no longer load 8 rounds in them.

I'm happy with 7 round magazines for my 45 ACP M1911s.

 

[Obturation]

Ive had 3, a sig, a springfield and a colt. Beautiful guns and a joy to shoot. Fact is 1911s are relatively complicated, heavy, and require more tuning and maintainence than most modern handguns. No hate at all on the design, really i do like them. But i wouldnt carry one for any reason , to me theyre for range use, ive had reasonable reliability but havent ever had a string of 1000 that had absolutely no failure of any kind. I dont require 2000 rounds without a failure for me to carry a gun, i do expect a reasonable capacity to weight ratio. I expect regular maintainence on every gun , but im not sending a handgun to a smith to be tuned up to work properly every so often. Everyone has different opinions and mine shouldnt influence anyone, but i wouldnt carry any 1911 or variant with confidence unless i had nothing else .

 

[Old Dog]

Fact is 1911s are relatively complicated, heavy, and require more tuning and maintainence than most modern handguns.

Well, I'd disagree with the complicated portion; as far as tuning and maintenance is concerned, if you're buying budget 1911s, you get what you pay for. Frankly, I've never regarded 1911s as requiring "more tuning" and the maintenance aspect should be about the same as any modern pistol. I haven't purchased a quality 1911 from a major maker in the past few years that has required an undue amount of maintenance.

i do expect a reasonable capacity to weight ratio. I expect regular maintainence on every gun , but im not sending a handgun to a smith to be tuned up to work properly every so often.

Capacity to weight ratio? It's almost funny when guys say this, as every time we have a thread here on carry handguns, most folks indicate they like small, easily concealed (and with the attendant lower capacity) handguns. A larger, heavier handgun can be fired more accurately with better efficiency than a small handgun. You can't have your cake and eat it too, in other words.

Given that I can shoot an Ed Brown or Wilson 1911 better than any pistol on the planet, I have no problems carrying a 1911 with confidence. Not what I typically carry (yes, I have opted for a much higher capacity carry gun as a result of consideration of worst-case threats) but certainly, I've owned many 1911s that have gone well over 1000 rounds with no failures of any kind and have zero qualms about carrying one.

Ay yi yi ... Vickers and Hackathorn videos again ... two guy who have custom 1911 makers producing signature pistols for them ... and they've both turned into shills for H&K and Glock ...