1911 Reliability for Self Defense?

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. . . The trick is to get the hammer down without slipping. I use two hands in lowering the hammer. The trigger finger hand is not used for anything but the trigger. The major source of accidental discharges is when someone tries to lower the hammer with the shooting hand thumb. The hammer slips and then, bang! I am a righty, and the middle finger of my left hand is under the hammer when I pull the trigger. The forefinger is between the hammer and hammer spur. I pull the middle finger out, control the hammer with my fore finger, lower the hammer more, and I finally get the hammer down.

Okay, in the sense of full disclosure, I am wearing a 1911 pattern pistol as I write this. I have tried to like Glock, and the like. I just keep drifting back to 1911.

Back to the point:

The way you are describing is not the correct way to lower the hammer (at least according to both ARMY training and Ca. POST). You need to place the left thumb between the hammer and the slide and your right thumb on the hammer. Pull the hammer back to the release the grip safety. then, while lowering the hammer, slowly move the thumb upward as the hammer lowers.

By doing this, if you slip, the thumb is between the hammer and the pin. When you thumb is removed the hammer is too close to the pin to fire.

All that being said, as you mentioned, I carry condition one.
 
I'm pretty new to the 1911. 14 years ago when I first started reading about C1, C2 and C3 and the disagreement about which condition to carry in I dug deeper. It became apparent to me that the 1911 was designed as a cavalry pistol to be carried in C3. Although the military kept it in service for 70 years isn't any help either. When I was in the Navy in the 60's I was issued one (C3 again). We also had an operational aircraft in use daily that was 23 years old. The military likes to squeeze every ounce of use (and then some) out of it's equipment. Since I'm not a horse soldier I prefer to use DA/SA as my EDC. I love 1911's and I probably shoot those more than anything I own but for me it really comes up short as a carry gun. 3" 1911's are relatively new. Pocket revolvers were in widespread use in 1880 and still popular.
 
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... It became apparent to me that the 1911 was designed as a cavalry pistol to be carried in C3.... When I was in the Navy in the 60's I was issued one (C3 again). We also had an operational aircraft in use daily that was 23 years old. The military likes to squeeze every ounce of use (and then some) out of it's equipment. Since I'm not a horse soldier I prefer to use DA/SA as my EDC.
Since you made the "operational aircraft in use daily that was 23 years old" point, I'll counter with a B-52 example.

The newest B-52 currently flying is 57 years old. It was designed as a high altitude nuclear bomber. Over the life of the aircraft it has moved away from high altitude nuclear role to a low altitude nuclear role, high altitude conventional role, low altitude conventional, cruise missile launcher, maritime Harpoon missile launcher, mine layer, even close air support (loose interpretation), and a bunch of other stuff.

What something was originally designed to do, or how it was originally designed to be employed, has very little bearing on how it is most effectively used in the present time.
 
23 years old is spry and young for a military aircraft! The C130 stationed nearby that I have a long running relationship with has been flying every day since 1964.
 
Okay, in the sense of full disclosure, I am wearing a 1911 pattern pistol as I write this. I have tried to like Glock, and the like. I just keep drifting back to 1911.

Back to the point:

The way you are describing is not the correct way to lower the hammer (at least according to both ARMY training and Ca. POST). You need to place the left thumb between the hammer and the slide and your right thumb on the hammer. Pull the hammer back to the release the grip safety. then, while lowering the hammer, slowly move the thumb upward as the hammer lowers.

By doing this, if you slip, the thumb is between the hammer and the pin. When you thumb is removed the hammer is too close to the pin to fire.

All that being said, as you mentioned, I carry condition one.

I will try this :thumbup:
 
Since you made the "operational aircraft in use daily that was 23 years old" point, I'll counter with a B-52 example.

The newest B-52 currently flying is 57 years old. It was designed as a high altitude nuclear bomber. Over the life of the aircraft it has moved away from high altitude nuclear role to a low altitude nuclear role, high altitude conventional role, low altitude conventional, cruise missile launcher, maritime Harpoon missile launcher, mine layer, even close air support (loose interpretation), and a bunch of other stuff.

What something was originally designed to do, or how it was originally designed to be employed, has very little bearing on how it is most effectively used in the present time.

Good point.

To that I would add that pocket carry has been around for a very long time. It isn't a new concept. Given that the 1911 was put into service around the time of Gen. Pershing's Expedition in 1916 ( I love military history) and that the 3'' 1911 has only been with us a short time, makes me wonder why. If it was a versatile design like the B-52 why didn't it appear sooner? The reason is it was designed as a 5'' pistol. If you cut the barrel and slide to 3" it won't work as it was originally designed. A B-52 will fly just as well at 5000' as it will at 50,000'. No modifications needed.

I like 1911's for what they really are. A very good heavy 5" pistol.
 
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A B-52 will fly just as well at 5000' as it will at 50,000'. No modifications needed.
For clarity, B-52 "low altitude" bombing or operations are not at 5,000', but rather 500' or lower.

To do that, the B-52 indeed required lots of modifications. Terrain avoidance radar, electro-optical viewing system (EVS), forward looking infrared (FLIR) cameras, etc. Other modification over the years included, wing modifications to carry cruise missiles, bomb bay modifications, updated bomb racks,...

The point is, the B-52 was modified to accomplish the mission required, and the original B-52 is not the same as the current B-52, even though the frames are basically the same (they are original - no new planes since 1962). Likewise, the 1911 has physically changed over the years and the way it is employed and the tactics used to employ it have also changed over the years.


Good point.

To that I would add that pocket carry has been around for a very long time. It isn't a new concept. Given that the 1911 was put into service around the time of Gen. Pershing's Expedition in 1916 ( I love military history) and that the 3'' 1911 has only been with us a short time, makes me wonder why. If it was a versatile design like the B-52 why didn't it appear sooner? The reason is it was designed as a 5'' pistol. If you cut the barrel and slide to 3" it won't work as it was originally designed.

I like 1911's for what they really are. A very good 5" pistol.
Like I said earlier, I'm not trying to convince anybody to carry, shoot, or even own a 1911. I'm just trying to improve the understanding of how the 1911 is currently used, and dispel erroneous assumptions of the gun from bygone era's. If it's not for you, or others, that's fine, but I'm just trying to give the most accurate information to those that may not have that information and are looking for it.
 
What kind of holster or ancillary equipment would that be?

If this thread is not killed early by a mod, maybe someone will chime in with their experience of a holster that failed. I am not going to spend the time searching for old threads. But for anyone who does share their experience, be aware, the fan boys will not be happy.

Here is one: 1911 Safety Disengaging in Truck

I challenge you to name a 1911-centric defensive pistol training school that teaches carrying the 1911 in any Condition other than Condition 1.

In Williamson West VA, population of 3000, there are two pharmacies which between them, dispensed 20.8 million opioid pills. When asked, the Pharmacists said "we are just giving the customer what they want!!" In the same way, all these self defense schools, which this is an example,

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bqpxw8NlYfC/?utm_source=ig_embed

are just giving the customer what they want. The first priority of these schools is profit, and they live in same 1911 fanboy ocean that we all swim.

I have learned to become skeptical of "experts". The smart boys, the real experts, all used to say that a Garand slamfire is only caused by user misconduct. That is, the design is perfect, protects the shooter from all ills and slamfires were only due to "high primers and "your worn out receiver bridge". The experts at CMP still preach this, and you know what, after two slamfires I finally figured out, these experts were all full of beans. Even if they don't recognize their delusions as delusions, I don't have to live in them. I learned that any mechanism with a free floating firing pin will slamfire, given a sensitive enough primer, and that the so called safety bridge (receiver bridge) is not a firing pin block, but a firing pin retraction cam.

At some point you need to self educate so " if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him"

As I mentioned to another member, I no longer try to convince people to like the 1911. Either you get the strengths or you don't. If you don't, that's fine with me, but I do spend some effort correcting errors when folks are discussing information about the gun that they either don't understand or willfully ignore.

I don't hate the 1911, it is a fine pistol, a very accurate pistol that I shoot regularly in Bullseye Pistol Competition. I do have the willies about carrying the things cocked and locked, and I don't care for firing pin blocks or long extended safeties. Carry what you are comfortable with.

OfZ3FcL.jpg

Not mine, but an interesting example of a 1911 modification:

LM7i4yW.jpg
 
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23 years old is spry and young for a military aircraft! The C130 stationed nearby that I have a long running relationship with has been flying every day since 1964.

The Navy is asking designers for "100 year hulls". Hard to believe that generations of Sailors, not yet born, shall be walking the decks of these ships:

6K0sNC6.jpg

Which eyes not yet created shall o'er-read;
And tongues to be your being shall rehearse,
When all the breathers of this world are dead;

http://www.shakespeares-sonnets.com/sonnet/81

 
Like I said earlier, I'm not trying to convince anybody to carry, shoot, or even own a 1911.

Neither am I.

People can figure out what they prefer to carry just like I did. I experimented with 1911 carry and decided there were better options suitable for me. Because I'm a huge fan of DA/SA that's where I landed. If you happen to be a single action sort of guy you will probably carry some type of 1911. Doesn't hurt to find what best suits your particular needs. The more I experiment the more I find what works best for me.:D
 
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The Navy is asking designers for "100 year hulls". Hard to believe that generations of Sailors, not yet born, shall be walking the decks of these ships:

View attachment 819246

Which eyes not yet created shall o'er-read;
And tongues to be your being shall rehearse,
When all the breathers of this world are dead;

http://www.shakespeares-sonnets.com/sonnet/81

Really makes you think.

If this thread is locked, I won't mind. I think I've gotten the information I needed. I appreciate all who've replied.

I think my main takeaway from this is that I will stick to Glocks and revolvers without manual safeties. My Glock 19, 21, and Colt Python have always been stone-cold reliable out of the box. I'm probably still going to keep my Colt 1991 Series 1911, but it will likely be relegated purely to a range toy. Again, it makes me a bit sad, but at the end of the day this is a tool I may have to depend my life on, and reliability is paramount.
 
The Navy is asking designers for "100 year hulls". Hard to believe that generations of Sailors, not yet born, shall be walking the decks of these ships:

View attachment 819246

Which eyes not yet created shall o'er-read;
And tongues to be your being shall rehearse,
When all the breathers of this world are dead;

http://www.shakespeares-sonnets.com/sonnet/81

That doesn't even look like any ship I was associated with and I don't think those will be around in hundred years. Rust never sleeps.:D
 
I carry a Dan Wesson CCO 1911 .45ACP, broke it in nicely, typically shoot Lawman and WWB FMJ and carry Speer Gold Dot 230gr JHP. Pistol has been very reliable and accurate with Tripp Mags. The original Checkmate mags... an occasional stove pipe.

Really enjoy this pistol and am prepared for when Colorado under the darn BLUE regime, begins to further restrict firearms here. The 7+1 in the CCO, in Milt Sparks Axiom and Nexus holsters will continue to be my EDC. The fifteen round Glocks, for the home and back country.

Btw, Colorado is NOT the Second Amendment friendly state it once was 45 years ago, or even 20. The people are beginning to reek here, from weed and Pelosi fever.
 
If this thread is not killed early by a mod, maybe someone will chime in with their experience of a holster that failed. I am not going to spend the time searching for old threads. But for anyone who does share their experience, be aware, the fan boys will not be happy.

Here is one: 1911 Safety Disengaging in Truck




I don't hate the 1911, it is a fine pistol, a very accurate pistol that I shoot regularly in Bullseye Pistol Competition. I do have the willies about carrying the things cocked and locked, and I don't care for firing pin blocks or long extended safeties. Carry what you are comfortable with.

Why do you have willies about carrying a 1911 cocked and locked? It's safer than most polymer pistols that only have a so-called safety on the trigger. I've been carrying one in condition 1 for almost 38 years old....oh crap, that MAKES me feel old.

Even if the thumb safety gets switched off you've still got the grip safety.
 
There's this thing called a "thumb break" on leather holsters. It's handy for people that have issues with C&L'd carry.

Generally, I never teach or recommend anything but C&L'd 1911 carry. Any other method, and you should switch to a Glock, DA/SA, or revolver. Those are better options than a neutered 1911.
 
Why do you have willies about carrying a 1911 cocked and locked? It's safer than most polymer pistols that only have a so-called safety on the trigger. I've been carrying one in condition 1 for almost 38 years old....oh crap, that MAKES me feel old.

Even if the thumb safety gets switched off you've still got the grip safety.

I don't care for the polymer, striker fired pistols either. I have heard more reports of more accidental discharges than the 1911!

Now this, this is a good self defense pistol:

25N2vY0.jpg

No safety, just a decocker. First shot double action, every after that single action. An external hammer, which I believe, provides a more robust ignition system, and is easy to see. You can tell from ten feet away if the pistol is cocked and ready to fire. This is the closest to a double action revolver that you can get in a semi auto.

The Germans started it all with this pistol:

bnbJM8r.jpg

Refined it to get to here:

Jj9WXfy.jpg
 
In Williamson West VA, population of 3000, there are two pharmacies which between them, dispensed 20.8 million opioid pills. When asked, the Pharmacists said "we are just giving the customer what they want!!" In the same way, all these self defense schools, which this is an example,

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bqpxw8NlYfC/?utm_source=ig_embed

are just giving the customer what they want. The first priority of these schools is profit, and they live in same 1911 fanboy ocean that we all swim.

Oh come on, I expect better than that from you.

No reputable self defense school teaches condition 2 or condition 3 carry of a 1911 because no reputable self defense school teaches any method that requires the shooter to cock or load the firearm. It has nothing to do with 1911 fanboism or giving customers what they want. It's just as simple as those methods of carrying a weapon are inferior for self defense. Condition 1 is the fastest and most efficient method to bring a 1911 into action.

If you are worried about bumping the safety on while shooting, choke up on the gun and thumb over it.

And who cares how the military did things. The military does a great deal of stupid things, many of them because "That's the way it's always been done"

To stay on topic, I run two citadel 9mm 1911s (full size and compact), a Taurus PT1911 in .45 and a Colt Series 80 in .45. I don't have problems from any of them. I had problems with the full size 9mm failing to lock open on the last round, but that cleared up by putting the proper weight springs in the magazines. The PT1911 was run in IDPA for years. Never tuned a thing on them. Guess I found the magic 1911s..

I see just as many Glocks go down in class as 1911s, but neither approach the failure rate of modern of Rugers.

The usual culprit:

Student: "I just bought this gun last night"
Me: "Yeah, I can see that it's still go the preservative grease in it...."

No real dog in this hunt though, I'm one of those trendy hipster CZ folks.
 
No safety, just a decocker. First shot double action, every after that single action. An external hammer, which I believe, provides a more robust ignition system, and is easy to see. You can tell from ten feet away if the pistol is cocked and ready to fire. This is the closest to a double action revolver that you can get in a semi auto.

I think the popularity of Sigs and Glocks for carry has a lot to do with the fact there is no manual safety. I've never been a fan of safeties. I've hunted my share and used them in the field tho. They're fine for those situations where the firearm has to be ready (round chambered) in anticipation of immediate use, but for any other condition I don't like them. I don't use them at the range and I don't want to mess with them in a SD situation. Just one more thing to have to train for. If I can avoid them I will. Easy enough for carry and range work which is all I do anymore.
 
Sigs might be a west coast thing maybe. CZ seems to own their share of the market around here.

1911 (rare) but still more popular than Sig, 2011 (competition), CZ, Glocks, and a few assorted Glock copies.
 
Sigs might be a west coast thing maybe. CZ seems to own their share of the market around here.

1911 (rare) but still more popular than Sig, 2011 (competition), CZ, Glocks, and a few assorted Glock copies.

I don't think I've seen a CZ at the range. Is that something like a Beretta 92 with a hammer block safety? Seriously, I don't know.
 
I think the popularity of Sigs and Glocks for carry has a lot to do with the fact there is no manual safety. I've never been a fan of safeties. I've hunted my share and used them in the field tho. They're fine for those situations where the firearm has to be ready (round chambered) in anticipation of immediate use, but for any other condition I don't like them. I don't use them at the range and I don't want to mess with them in a SD situation. Just one more thing to have to train for. If I can avoid them I will. Easy enough for carry and range work which is all I do anymore.

I do believe this is true. For one thing, you have to train people to remember to take the safety off, which they might forget, in a stressful situation. I am of the opinion the reason the P7 went away was due to the squeeze cocker mechanism.

UR0Zx0a.jpg

Qcq24KL.jpg


I have handled P7’s, and it is a really innovative design, fixed barrel, chamber flutes, delayed blowback (gas venting) firearm. What put it in the ash heap of history was the squeeze cocker mechanism. It was easy to get the sequence confused. Having played with a squeeze cocker, what you are supposed to do is, squeeze the front strap, pull the trigger. Easy, eh? Well, lets say, you only meant to squeeze the front strap, but not pull the trigger. Ought to be fool proof. But, this pistol will let you pull the trigger, and then squeeze the front strap, upon which the pistol will then fire! Lets, see, pat head, rub belly, or pat belly, rub head. Easy to get out of sequence.

The current 1911 configuration developed after decades of combat games. Which initially started with the Leatherslap competitions of the 1950’s. Which was heavily influenced by the Colt SAA walk and draw games. I have only read the magazines, saw the films, (still love the spaghetti westerns) and watched the TV shows, but the belief system in that period was the fastest man with the gun always won the gunfight. There were whole movies about who was the fastest man. An hour and a half later, the climax was, two men in the middle of a street, take that you varmint!, slapping leather. Boom!, Program over. You can see that combat doctrine in practice in any 1950’s Cowboy TV series. The first man to clear leather is always going to win over his slower opponent. Combat starts off with taunts , manly displays, finally both characters go for their holstered guns (take that you varmint!) , and the fastest man wins. TV program over till next week when the whole thing starts over again, different opponents, same end

That also makes for fun games. I shot a lot of IPSC, loved the game, maybe it helped in building confidence and surely helped in watching the front sight and all. But you know, after reading enough and watching enough Utube video’s, I think the quick draw emphasis is gamesmanship. If you don’t have your gun in hand, and your opponent does, you are at a real tactical and strategic disadvantage. Anyone who gets in a gunfight with a holstered firearm, against an opponent who has a gun in their hand, is probably going to get a couple of holes in them before their gun clears leather. This scenario does not make for a fun speed competition so, what people practice, is a modern version of walk and draw. But with semi auto’s. Hence the 1911 extended safeties, the extended magazine releases, etc.

I think the number of Cops killed in traffic stops is due to the bad guy having the initiative. The Cop walks up to the car, and the driver/passenger has already decided to kill the Cop, has a gun in their hand, pulls out his/her gun into vision and shoots the Cop. The bad guys had the initiative, and the Cop had his/her gun in the holster. And based on the historical evidence, most Western gunfighters were a bunch of bushwackers. John Hardin was shot in the back as he gambled. Happened to Hickcock, happened to Pat Garrick. It is much safer to shoot something in the back, especially when you know the opponent is armed.

I have seen one Top Gun episode where the shooter, might have been a Delta Force guy, bumped the safety on the 1911 he was shooting. The gun stopped going bang, ruined his time and his score. And that was just a game, being played by a highly trained individual. I prefer a system without flippers and levers, but, that’s just me. Carry whatever you have confidence in.
 
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