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1911 reliability in 2-3 day class

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by w129, Oct 16, 2013.

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  1. w129

    w129 Member

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    I just watched a video by Rob Pincus that had a very dim view of 1911's used in the classes he offers. In fact at the end of the video he offers to refund your money for the course as well as your ammo costs if you can get through one of his two day classes with a 1911. The caveat is that the gun must not encounter mechanical malfunctions as well as operator error concerning the manual safety.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P0edDYdqXU

    I'm asking for feedback from folks that have attended classes with their 1911, that did not experience the malfunctions he refers to in the video and offers his refund on.

    The video addresses sub-compact 1911's, but the offer is extended to all 1911's.
     
  2. ECVMatt

    ECVMatt Member

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    I dearly love 1911's, but have to admit that I have problems with them. I am left handed, so that immediately throws a monkey in the kitchen. I have moved to my Glocks for hunting and SD, because they don't jam for me. I know others that the opposite is true. I guess that is why we have so many choices. My Glock 26 has never jammed with close to 2k rounds through it.
     
  3. tomrkba

    tomrkba Member

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    I tried several times and had to switch to either a SIG P220 or a Browning High Power MK III. I always take a back up gun, but I've only gone to them when using a 1911 as primary. I'm 1911 cursed, so my 1911 expectations are different than most folks.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2013
  4. Rio Laxas

    Rio Laxas Member

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    I made it through a 2 day defensive pistol class (approximately 1000 rounds) without any problems using a Dan Wesson CBOB back in 2008 or so. I actually didn't expect the Dan Wesson to do that great since I had a tough break in period with it. The rear sight fell off and the FTE and FTF malfunctions were frequent during the first 500 rounds or so, but it did fine. I do recall that my hands took quite a bit of beating from frequent manipulation of the controls on the pistol (not recoil). I took the level 2 class with a Glock 20 & 21 mostly for that reason. The Glock 21 actually went down with a broken extractor, so I had to switch to the 10mm. I think malfunctions are a matter of when and not if, and I haven't really seen a quality 1911 be any worse in capable hands.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2013
  5. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    I took a 5 day (1500rd) course with a 1911 and was pretty surprised than I didn't experience any stoppages...I didn't clean it at all. But then it was a new 1911 which I'd had built and I thought it would be a good test of the build quality

    I will say that while shooting IDPA matches (~100 rds), if there is a failure during a string of fire, it is usually a 1911. These are guns which I'd expect were cleaned the night before.

    This doesn't mean that there aren't 1911s that could make it through a Pincus class, it is just saying that you can better your odds with a different choice of weapon
     
  6. Fred_G

    Fred_G Member

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    Are we comparing compact 1911's or regular sized 1911's?

    Note the caveat of no user error with the safety. I will admit, he has a good point on the 1911 and a high round class. But, does he mention other popular guns that have a safety?

    And the OP's title is a little misleading.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2013
  7. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    Ive taken a couple courses with my 1911's (and Berettas)without a hiccup.. However, I have seen other 1911's go down in the same classes. Heck even in my last CHL renew (50rds) two 1911's went down. (Kimber and RIA) both had to finish with borrowed guns.

    The vids been floating around for quite some time. No clue if he has had any takers. His attitude doesnt warrant me giving him a dime though.
     
  8. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    He doesn't have to, he isn't making the offer to users of other guns with a (thumb) safety.

    If you have watched the video (it isn't new), he says that he has consistently seen 1911s fail during his class
     
  9. JRWhit

    JRWhit Member

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    It still begs the question on how many of the failures are from nib guns that have not been through a break in period. I have not owned or fired the compacts but I have not heard of any failures among those I know that own them.
     
  10. moxie

    moxie Member

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    Interesting. I have completed courses with my Commander with no malfunctions, but did observe that most of the 1911s at those classes failed at some point. Especially the short EMPs and similar. I know one guy who has failures with his Les Baer full size, and a Wilson, but has an explanation for every failure, so they don't "count." (In his mind.)

    The Glocks and M&Ps just perk right along. They are now my choice for carry and courses.
     
  11. Fishbed77

    Fishbed77 Member

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    If a 1911 is built right, it will be reliable. My Colt Government XSE has never had a malfunction through several thousand rounds.
     
  12. hk-sigman

    hk-sigman Member

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    He's talking about the subcompact 1911's. They are well known for not being reliable. Most 1911 experts would recommend not going smaller than a Commander size for the 1911.
     
  13. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    The firearm in the video is a subcompact Kimber 1911. But the "offer" is applied to all 1911s.

    Subcompact 1911s get a bad rap for being unreliable, especially the 3 inch models. But I see no reason to attack all 1911s based on one subcategory. Besides I didn't realize people still listened to Pinctus. To me, he is in the same category as James Yeager as an "instructor." I remember seeing a still photo of his pistol form, with the thumb of his support hand right over the ejection port of his Glock. Good job.
     
  14. DeltaKilo

    DeltaKilo Member

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    I have an Ed Brown 1911. It's on its 60,000 round stretch. It has never failed to function reliably. Ever.

    The issues with 1911s are usually:

    1. The user shooting the gun has never properly broken it in.
    2. THe user has had work done to it or has done work to it and has never made sure it works.

    I know a couple of big-time trainers who don't use 1911s because they're "tired of fixing them". I've never had to do more than change springs to any of the dozen or more 1911s I've had to make them run. The caveat with some of them is to take them out, shoot the snot out of them to wear them in, and then address any hangups out of the box (which usually come down to poor tolerances, and can be fixed with a little elbow grease and some knowhow).

    The other thing I find is a problem is that people buy overly tight commercial 1911s. The 1911 was originally designed to be tight but not unbelievably so. They had to have some slop in the tolerances. A properly built custom or semi-custom will run perfectly because they've been properly fitted. But when you stack a bunch of parts together with extremely tight tolerances and then don't do the necessary fitting, you're going to have a bad time.
     
  15. Broker

    Broker Member

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    Rob Pincus is not impressed with 1911's. That's OK, I'm not impressed with Rob Pincus. Actually, I find him pretty comical, but that's just me..........
     
  16. falnovice

    falnovice Member

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    On the whole I am afraid I would have to agree.
    While a well built 1911 can run like a top, a lot of the production ones simply don't seem to......at least not out of the box. I will say I have a Springfield loaded that I have never had an issue with, clean or dirty.
    I would tend to agree about having one properly fitted, versus the pistol simply being a collection of various parts put together. Other guns don't have that issue as there simply isn't the wealth of parts for them out there. Not to mention that as of today, only Glock makes Glocks.
    Everyone makes 1911's.

    A friend of mine wanted to have a 1911 built with loose tolerances. I believe he wanted it tight enough to group as good as a glock, but no better, with a good barrel and trigger.

    As a side note, in speaking with a lot of veterans I have never heard them complain about the 1911 not being reliable.....typically their issues were that it was an inaccurate rattletrap.
     
  17. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    His offer is meaningless. What does he mean by mechanical malfunction? If a round fails to feed or eject how does he determine if it is a result of mechanical failure or shooter error such as improper grip or limp wristing?

    Or does he consider shooter errors to be a "mechanical malfunction"?

    I have two 1911's I'll take him upon his offer with.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
  18. atomd

    atomd Member

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    It's kind of a bs offer since he includes "operator error" in that line. That is pretty subjective and isn't the gun's fault that the user can't manipulate it correctly. I don't have anything against him or his class though as I've never met him or taken his class myself.
     
  19. royal barnes

    royal barnes Member

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    He hates 1911's. Period! I quit paying any attention to him a long time ago.
     
  20. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    The offer sounded pretty clear cut to me. If it fails to feed/eject/fire, it is a mechanical malfunction. The inability to operated it correctly is part of the point of establishing that there are better platforms for his class

    It is like blaming Glock malfunctions on "limp wristing"...it is a platform shortcoming that it can't operate when a less than optimal grip/hold is taken

    That is something I'd be interested in seeing. How would one even get their support thumb "over" the ejection port...so it was on top of the slide?
     
  21. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    It was in a gun rag 5 or 6 years ago at least. When I knew much less about firearms, surprise I know. I made a note of the name and to pretty much disregard anything he said after that.
     
  22. Fred_G

    Fred_G Member

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    Left handed person shooting a right handed gun is all I can think of. Would be interested in seeing this myself.
     
  23. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    This is like saying the car malfunctioned when it hit the telephone after I steered it towards it. I can make any semi-automatic (heck most double action revolvers) malfunction through improper technique.

    Note the O.P. Operator error with the manual safety. There are other operator errors which can cause the gun to malfunction.

    Like I said I would take him up on his offer (if I afford it).
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
  24. Fireforger

    Fireforger Member

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    Who is Rob Pincus?
     
  25. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    I thought of that too, but Rob is right handed.

    The first thought I had was if he had his support handover the top of the slide chambering a round (slingshotting). The other was if he was picking a gun off a table...the fastest technique requires that you scoop the gun, off the table and into your strong hand, with the support hand
     
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