1911s: why safer cocked and locked?

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10 Ringer'

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Since the preferred method of carry of most 1911 owners is cocked and locked, I was wondering why it is considered safer to carry a gun this way? Please, spare no technical detail, I'm a novice in some areas but a nuts and bolts kinda guy and love to learn how and why things work. Any good all around book on the 1911 is certainly on my list of "to reads."

From my perspective though, I'd think there's naturally a higher risk in the potential energy of a cocked hammer putting a load on a spring than a hammer down on a full chamber. I'd think it would be cool to be able to have a 1911 with hammer down and round in chamber just like a transfer bar SA revolver so all you had to do is draw on a bad guy and cock it as you unholster.

Makes me wonder why somebody hasn't figured out a way to modify the 1911 to be safe in a "locked but not cocked" condition without having to rack the slide to put a fresh .45 in the tube. Thanks for any input.
 
Lots of solutions to problems I don't have

For instance a squeeze cocker is out there as well as the Seecamp double action conversion followed by Colt's version and the current which with LDA is a nice trigger.

Since you ask I'll admit I've seen a negligent discharge dropping the hammer on a loaded chamber but never seen one cocked and locked - so for my money cocked and locked is safer than dropping the hammer on a loaded chamber.

That said there have been holsters adapted to cocking on the draw and there was an Air Policeman whose name escapes me, see Chic Gaylord's Handgunner's Guide who was quite handy with a variety of carries that met his duty requirements. He had some extra incentive of course - having been shot while carrying safely.
 
I'm not sure why you think cocked and locked is unsafe. What mode of carry is safe to you for a gun? Glocks and revolvers go off whenever you pull the trigger. Guns with a manual safety have to have the safety disengaged and then the gun will go off when the trigger is pulled. 1911s must have two manual safeties disengaged and have the trigger pulled before the gun can fire. To me it sounds safer than the other two.

A cocked hammer might look scary, but on a 1911 it's not dangerous. Just try to imagine a situation where a cocked and locked 1911 would accidentally go off. I can't think of one. It's very safe and extremely quick to bring to "cocked and unlocked".
 
Here you go --- Safety Fast Shooting Kit


http://www.cylinder-slide.com/sfs.htm


Prior to the introduction of the S.F.S. system, the single action 1911 or the Browning Hi-Power could be carried in three modes:
1. Chamber empty, hammer down.
2. Chamber loaded, hammer down.
3. Chamber loaded, hammer cocked, safety locked.

To eliminate these three methods of carrying the Single Action pistol, the double action pistol mechanism was developed, allowing the hammer to be cocked by pulling the trigger. However, a double action pistol requires a heavier trigger pull and a longer movement of the trigger. This can be detrimental to accuracy because the different positioning of the trigger for the first shot may disturb the shooter. To offer a safer weapon, some manufacturers introduced an additional manual safety which made handling the pistol more confusing.


The S.F.S. System eliminates all three of these carry modes and the problems associated with a double action pistol, creating a safer method of carry, faster use, and better accuracy. The S.F.S. system allows the pistol to be carried with the chamber loaded and the hammer down. When the pistol is carried in this condition, the hammer is locked, the sear is locked, the slide cannot be opened, and the trigger is locked
 
I'd think it would be cool to be able to have a 1911 with hammer down and round in chamber just like a transfer bar SA revolver so all you had to do is draw on a bad guy and cock it as you unholster.
Click to expand...

Given that scenario, You'd be cool, to be certain. It would definitely take several hours to achieve though, as your body cools after you were viciously gunned down mid-draw by the aforementioned bad guy.

It's a 1911, not a Single Action Army Revolver. Colt's series 80/90 modifications make what you propose possible, but that doesn't make it a good idea. Search the archives for recent discussions on why Condition 2 in a 1911 is slower and (in practice) less safe than carrying C&L. Some contain a good argument against condition 3 and the so called "Israeli Method" as well. If, after reading the page provided by Rival and browsing the various 1911 resources available on the web, you still are nervous about the safety of Condition 1, I strongly suggest that you carry a different handgun that has your confidence when it comes to safety.
 
Safer in Condition One.

Here is a cut and paste from another thread on a test that I did a while back...before I posted it...before there was an internet or a High Road
Forum.

The basic reason that carrying a single-action autopistol hammer down on a
hot chamber is unsafe is that it requires pulling the trigger and controlling the hammer. If the hammer slips, the gun is in the same mode as it would be if the trigger was simply pulled. To wit: You just told it to fire. In a perfect world, we don't drop guns or allow hammers to get loose from our thumbs, but perfection only exists in the mind of God. If your thumb slips off
the hammer before it gets well past the halfway point in its arc, the gun will fire..and the responsibility of whatever takes the hit is squarely on you.

By loading the chamber and engaging the safety, you are telling the gun NOT to fire, and...barring a mechanical defect...it won't.

Note that dropping a pre-Series 80 Colt or any 1911 on the muzzle without a passive firing pin block can cause the inertial firing pin to reach the primer with enough force to fire the round. The remedy is to put a fresh firing pin spring in the pistol about every 4 or 5,000 rounds. Cheap insurance for less than a buck a copy.
----------------------------------------------

Although I do like the extra security of a Series 80 type passive firing pin block for Con-1 in an open topped holster, the pre-Series 80/Series 2s
are not prone to discharge from this mode.

I used a Dremel to grind about an eighth of an inch from the nose of an
old sear, and installed it in a pistol, using two different hammers for the test. One was an old GI hammer with a broken hook, and the other was
a Series 80 Colt hammer with the safety shelf instead of the true half-
cock notch. Going further, the one good hook on the GI hammer was
ground until it would jar off with a tap on the spur with a plastic mallet.
This was necessary because the sear would still allow full cock and wouldn't
fall without pulling the trigger. I ran this test to determine whether the
pistol would fire if the sear nose failed.

Jarring the hammer off the hooks wouldn't allow the hammer to fall past the half-cock notch with 50 attempts. The Series 80 hammer also had the
hooks ground off to let the hammer bump off the sear. The shelf caught
it 50 times, and never allowed the face of the hammer to reach the firing pin. I reached the conclusion that the sear would have to break in two
or three separate pieces before it would let the hammer fall to the pin.

Going a step further, I completely removed the hammer hooks so that I had to hold the hammer back and release it. I then engaged the thumb safety to see if it would slow the hammer's fall. It did slow it a little, but
the half-cock notch stopped it cold...so I then removed the notch and
ground an angle to allow the hammer to get past the sear, and repeated the test with a primed case in the chamber. It took 37 attempts before I
got the primer to fire. Keep in mind that 1/8 inch of the sear nose was
missing.

Safe to carry in Condition One? I think so.

Cheers!
Tuner
 
Interesting how the people who think Condition One is unsafe can't explain how a failure could actually happen, while the folks who think Condition One is safe can explain in very precise terms the systems in place to prevent a failure.

The anti-C&L folks seem to have one argument, that they present in various forms: "It looks scary!"

No kidding, it is a GUN. It isn't supposed to look like Strawberry Shortcake's bloomers or something. :rolleyes:
 
A lot of people I know DO carry their 1911 hammer down on a loaded chamber.

Like 1911 tuner I did all the cocked and locked tests almost exactly as he did.

I know the 1911 is safe to carry cocked and locked.

I also did a lot of tests on hammer down carry.

It is a 100% complete load of BS that is unsafe to CARRY it hammer down.

The SAFETY PROBLEM IS GETTING THE HAMMER DOWN WITHOUT AN AD. After the hammer is safely down it IS safe.

It is a myth that a blow to the hammer will fire a hammer down 1911. I know because I done this test with a primed case with three different 1911s. I even beat the hammer with a ball peen shop hammer on an old junker I used to own.

The second myth is that the hammer can get caught on something and be pulled back and released firing the pistol. More BS. The half cock notch will not allow this to happen.

Now before everyone goes nuts calling me an idiot for reccomending this type of carry I DO NOT RECCOMEND THIS TYPE CARRY. NEVER HAVE AND NEVER WILL.

I am only explaining that it is a myth that it is dangerous.

As far as dropping a 1911 on the muzzle and having a AD from the firing pin ineritia yes that IS possible BUT not as likely to happen with the hammer down.

Why?

Because with the hammer cocked the firing pin is further away from the primer. If droped on the muzzle it will hit the primer harder than it would with the hammer down. Think about it.

Now for those people who INSIST on carring a 1911 hammer down I will explain how to lower the hammer without shooting off important body parts.

Place your thumb between the hammer and frame. Pull the trigger and let the hammer rest on your thumb. RELEASE THE TRIGGER. Now the half cock notch will prevent an AD IF you screw up.

Slowly let the hammer down untill it hits the half cock notch.

Not carefully let the hammer down the rest of the way. If you screw up now the hammer will not be cocked enough to have an AD.
 
1911 tuner.

I respect your opinions because unlike the vast majority you PERSONALY test your guns and KNOW how they work and KNOW if they are safe or not.

Now one question.

Would you still carry your 1911 cocked and locked if it had NO half cock notch or firing pin lock or ANYTHING else to stop the fall of the hammer if things went wrong?
 
Hypothetical Question

cornbread asked:

Would you still carry your 1911 cocked and locked if it had NO half cock notch or firing pin lock or ANYTHING else to stop the fall of the hammer if things went wrong?

Let me first ask a question or three.

Do you hunt? How many have taken the field with a shotgun or a striker
fired rifle? How many servicemen have carried an M-1, M-14, or M-16
cocked with the safety engaged? That's cocked and locked too, even
though most people don't consider that. The double shotgun doesn't have a half-cock...Neither does the pump or self-shucking scattergun. Bolt-action
rifles don't either, yet we carry them at the ready with a chambered round,
cocked hammer or striker, with the safety engaged, and many designs block the trigger only.

The Glock autopistol is striker-fired, and when the slide is racked to chamber a round, the striker is poised to...strike! If the mechanical
device that holds that striker fails, the gun will fire...yet we don't
give a second thought to the Glock's Condition Zero.

The 1911 has a device to block the sear and the trigger, which makes it
no less safe than the cocked/locked shotgun, and a bit "safer" than the
Glock. Would I carry a 1911 in condition One with a missing half-cock? Remember that part of my experiment involved removing the half-cock notch, Holding the hammer past the full-cock position, and releasing it.
The thumb safety slowed the hammer down and prevented a discharge
36 times...on the same primer. In order to give the pistol every opportunity to fire, I used Federal primers..which have a reputation for being touchy. CCI Mil-Spec or even Winchester primers likely would have
withstood much more before detonating.

Would I? Yessir. If it made me nervous, there are a mulititude of
holsters out there that impose a strap between hammer and slide,
and I would carry in one of those.

Bottom line...

"It's NOT safe. It's a GUN!"
 
1911Tuner,

The Glock autopistol is striker-fired, and when the slide is racked to chamber a round, the striker is poised to...strike! If the mechanical
device that holds that striker fails, the gun will fire...yet we don't
give a second thought to the Glock's Condition Zero.
Click to expand...

FWIW, at rest the Glock's striker doesn't have enough inertia to bust a cap, as it resets to the half-cock position. Pulling the trigger draws it rearward to full-cock before releasing it.
 
Glock Half-Cock

Tamara said:

FWIW, at rest the Glock's striker doesn't have enough inertia to bust a cap, as it resets to the half-cock position. Pulling the trigger draws it rearward to full-cock before releasing it.

Ahhhh...And it seems that I learn somethin' every day. Good to know.
Truth is, that I haven't been too interested in Glocks. They just don't fit my
hand.
 
Condition 2

jem said:

I carry in condition 2 all the time and have done so for many years.

I have also done so, but can't advise it in any case. Might I suggest a
two-foot thick stack of old newspapers to stop a bullet in the event that
your thumb slips? Cheap, effective, sits out of the way in a corner or closet...and could spare you a world of grief in that once-in-a-lifetime
OOPS!

By far, the safest method that I've found for lowering the hammer on a hot chamber is by reaching over the top of the slide with the weak hand, and
grasping the sides of the hammer in a pinch with thumb and forefinger.
Push backward on the hammer to make sure that you have full control of
it before pulling the trigge, and lower the hammer in full pinch.

With this method, the weak hand is opposing the strong hand, with the
thumb on the left side of the hammer and the finger on the right. It
feels a little clumsy the first few times, but it grows on you.

The slick method of using the strong thumb to pull the hammer against the grip safety to disengage it and pulling the trigger to effect the hammer drop
one-handed is a time bomb. Whenever I see anybody do that, I make a mental note to avoid his company. I've seen several ADs while lowering the hammer on a pistol...and not all were 1911s. One resulted in a dead
German Shepherd, and a wife that was white as a sheet for an hour afterward. Ever heard a .44 Magnum go off in a kitchen without hearing
protection? Awesome! It didn't do anything for the water pipes in the basement either.

Careful! The life you save might be mine!

Tuner
 
I posted the safest way to lower the hammer on a 1911.

Lowering it any other way is where people screw up.

The best thing to do is just put the safety on and don't worry about.

Cocked and locked is the best form of carry for the 1911.
 
1911 tuner.

Now you know the Glock is basically a DAO.

Most all single action auto pistols have something to stop the fall of the hammer or striker if the sear fails.

You know how the 1911 works. The safety and the half cock notch stops the fall of the hammer.

The Springfield XD is a single action pistol. The grip safety blocks the sear and a firing pin lock stops the fall of the striker if the sear should fail or the slide come loose from the frame.

I don't know but I am told that even the POS Highpoint has a firing pin lock.

The only single action auto pistols that I am aware of that do not have something to stop the fall of the hammer or striker is the Jennings, Bryco type junk and the Steyr M series.

One can get by with rifles with only a sear blocking safety because they are useally not carried by everyone in public everyday with a loaded chamber.

Hunting rifles are not left loaded all the time and are not carried 7 days a week all year.

Good old rifles such as the Mauser were very safe. They had a two stage trigger with a bunch of sear engagement and a safety that locks the firing pin.

The M-14 and Garand's manaul safety blocks the hammer. The M-16 AR -15 has a sear blocking safety but they have a lot of sear engagement.
 
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