Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

1967 Wingmaster vs new 870P for home defense?

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Hapworth, Nov 19, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hapworth

    Hapworth Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    370
    Happened across what appears to be a beautifully preserved Wingmaster that Remington identifies from the serial number as a 1967 build. Blued; 18" bead barrel; wood stock and forend that look law enforcement, not sporting.

    I've been planning on acquiring a current production 870P for home defense use, but find this piece calls to me.

    I'm not an expert in evaluating 870 condition -- though my general firearm assessment skills are good -- and this is an impressive specimen, condition-wise: a couple very light handling marks and wear and that's it; function seems solid and surprisingly fresh -- it's been shot but not used unless restored and refinished.

    Seller has no history on it, and is asking $450 but there's room to play.

    I'd like some help deciding.

    Obviously the knee-jerk reaction is "It's an older Wingmaster in good shape -- get it!", and that may be the right reaction.

    I'd be foregoing parkerization, which I like on working guns; the two shot extension; and a couple other do-dads like a front bead night sight and shell holder (yes, I've been planning to buy an AI&P gun) -- none of which is absolutely necessary, just desired.

    I could of course have all that done to the Wingmaster, but that seems wrong for an older one so well preserved.

    The only thing the Wingmaster lacks that actually troubles me is the flexitab conversion, which for $100 I could do myself but that starts to make the savings of buying used less compelling.

    But it is beauty, and really seems to be calling, and would probably be enough gun for the intended purpose as is...

    Thoughts? Price? Pitfalls?
     
  2. Smith357

    Smith357 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,024
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    A vintage shotgun would just look wrong all tarted up. I vote on a new one for your build.
     
  3. Hapworth

    Hapworth Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    370
    Agreed, and as stated, I wouldn't tart it up.
     
  4. AI&P Tactical

    AI&P Tactical Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2012
    Messages:
    485
    Location:
    Michigan
    The used one will serve just fine and the flex tab is a must. If the price is right get it.......... no wait, I just lost a sale. Forget that old piece of junk and send me your money.
     
  5. Milkmaster

    Milkmaster Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    2,027
    Location:
    Murfreesboro, TN
    If it calls to you then buy it! It doesn't have to be the last or only one you own!
     
  6. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    21,221
    Location:
    AL, NC
    That IS an 870 Police, from your description - just the 1967 version. They didn't start marking the receivers differently for another 20 years or so. And the Riot version had the same furniture and finish, but a 20" bead sight barrel.

    Can't tell you what to do with it, I'd be prone to keep it 'as is' but I'm sentimental that way.
     
  7. Virginian

    Virginian Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Messages:
    4,014
    Location:
    Williamsburg, Virginia
    I didn't think a flex tab conversion cost nearly that much, having never found the need for one, but I looked and I'm not sure $100 will cover it. Sounds to me like for what YOU really want the AI&P version is the way to go.
     
  8. Hapworth

    Hapworth Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    370
    Ah, but I could snag that old piece of junk instead and send you my money. :D
     
  9. Hapworth

    Hapworth Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    370
    I believe that's indeed what it is.

    I feel the same way about the classic models.
     
  10. Hapworth

    Hapworth Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    370
    Really? Lists for about $88 at Brownells; I figured that and shipping puts me at about $100 and I'd do the install (just a parts swap as far as I can tell).

    What am I missing?
     
  11. 788Ham

    788Ham Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    3,206
    Location:
    Hills west of Denver
    If you need one to "jack-up", go to a pawn shop and buy an older junker, leave this one alone, or don't buy it either!
     
  12. Hapworth

    Hapworth Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    370
    :scrutiny:


    ;)
     
  13. Virginian

    Virginian Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Messages:
    4,014
    Location:
    Williamsburg, Virginia
    I went to the Remington parts list, and promptly read it wrong, sorry.
     
  14. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,742
    Location:
    south Florida
    What you've described is exactly what I was issued during my years on the street (1973-1995). I've seen very few offered in the last few months that I've been looking (still haven't even decided to make a purchase if and when I find one.....). Can't say enough good things about that particular simple popper for street work (and by extension home defense). For those that can forego all the extras... an 18" imp cyl with just a bead sight and standard four round tube is a quick pointing argument ender.... It won't load three inch shells and there are lots more "modern" choices available but I can't telll you how much confidence I have in that model.... Yes, the asking price seems high but that's the only concern I'd have. You'll find that these particular weapons were mostly carried in one car or other and only made it to the range for practice and qualification once or twice a year at most. In recent years the few agencies that still have them probably keep them in one dusty corner or other in a locked armory.
     
  15. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Messages:
    18,685
    I'd start with a new one. Old guns should be kept as old guns.
     
  16. Hapworth

    Hapworth Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    370
    No worries, just glad it isn't more expensive than I thought. ;)
     
  17. Hapworth

    Hapworth Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    370
    Excellent review -- thank you.
     
  18. Hapworth

    Hapworth Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    370
    You're messing with me, right?
     
  19. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2008
    Messages:
    15,710
    Location:
    Hot and Humid FL
    If you REALLY think you need all the extras to make the gun a serious performer for its intended role, I would argue that is incorrect. When it comes to guns that are used to keep you alive, think KISS - the more crap you add is just that much more to go wrong at precisely the moment that Murphy farts on your parade - extensions get tweaked and jam, coolio sights fail or get snagged, just like slings, added weight up front makes it slow to respond, and on and on

    Do yourself a real favor - get whichever stock gun you want (I would go with the older WM) and put it through your training drill, usage drills, whatever it is you envision using the gun for - if after some extensive practice you TRULY believe you need some extra gizmos, gadgets, and geegaws, then add them; but ONLY after you ran it stock for a credible time - you might be surprised just how effective those old stock guns really are in today's reality - even if they fail in today's video game false reality

    good luck in your quest
     
  20. Hapworth

    Hapworth Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    370
    That's how I handle any new piece, whether stripped down and basic or full of goodies: run it like it is for several hundred rounds before changing anything, if changing anything.

    I don't play video games. ;)
     
  21. btg3

    btg3 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2007
    Messages:
    1,921
    I know, I know!!!
    Be aware that the LE forend is shorter than a field forend. If you grip at the rear edge of the LE forend and cycle the action, the heel of your hand can get pinched against the receiver.
     
  22. Hapworth

    Hapworth Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    370
    Good info -- thank you.
     
  23. rodinal220

    rodinal220 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2005
    Messages:
    1,290
    Location:
    USA
    No need to spend too much for an overpriced 870P when a 870 Wingmaster is basically the same gun.I would get a 18.5" barrel for it and call it good for HD.The 870P has evolved over the years,the early ones were just a 870 Wingmaster.870Ps made in th last 20 years have been blue,parkerized,with heavier springs,made with synthetic stocks.Once you get past the "special" inspection check-point charlie thing made in the magic part of the factory by armourer elves.A 870 Wingmaster is the best buy in the used rack.
    Most folks do not need the heavier sear spring,under trained or poorly selected types do.

    870 Police shotguns go thru a special 23 station check list – ranging from visual
    inspection, functional testing, test firing, and final inspection.

    • All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY.
    This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the
    same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.

    • All parts that enter the “special build area” are visually inspected by hand to ensure
    top quality and functionality.

    • Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer
    magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.

    • A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5
    and 8 lbs.

    • A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it
    will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive
    feeding when using heavier payload rounds.
    • Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking
    mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism
    can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the
    appropriate key. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.

    • The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police
    shotgun vehicle racks.

    • The Police shotguns utilize the heavy duty SPEEDFEED Stocks and Fore-ends.

    • The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without
    physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.

    • The Express model has a BEAD BLAST BLUE finish while the Police models utilize
    either High Luster bluing or Parkerization.

    • The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a
    compressed metal housing.

    • The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction
    with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock
    down as used on the Express system.

    • The receivers used in Police guns are “vibra honed” to smooth out rough finishes
    and remove burrs before parkerization or bluing.

    • Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal
    cast which are utilized on the Express models.
     
  24. Hunterdad

    Hunterdad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,873
    Location:
    Syracuse, NY
    IMHO, there are very few things sexier than a blued wingmaster with nice wood and a blued mag extension that's even with the end of the barrel. No other crap hanging off it either.
     
  25. Hapworth

    Hapworth Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    370
    Thank you for your input. The Wingmaster I'm considering comes with an 18" bead barrel; I'd probably pick up a sporting barrel and the WM would do double duty as defense and clays.

    I've encountered the Remington write-up on differences between the Police and Express models and on paper it's compelling. At a different forum dedicated exclusively to shotguns, some of the more senior members say that it's outdated and doesn't amount to much more than hype now, save for about $30 in easily replaceable parts and little extra finishing that some elbow grease and break-in use can accomplish.

    Personally, I have no idea and would love to find definitive evidence one way or the other.

    I believe that the Police model no longer ships with the heavier sear spring, but instead uses the same five pound one as in the Express, and that the Integrated Safety System is no longer used on the Express as of several years ago, so the up-to-dateness and validity of Remington data sheet is in question.

    Also, several owners of current Police models report their gun shipped with the polymer trigger housing.

    The heavier carrier dog spring, follower spring, and machined ejectors and extractors I do believe remain a difference between the Police and the Express, but they're easily and cheaply replaced. And the parkerization on the Police is supposed to still be much superior.

    Differences in how the barrel attaches to the receiver and the extension tube additions remain, so far as I know.

    Personally, if the amount of individual attention, hand fitting and smoothing the Police model is supposed to receive it does, is quite compelling to me.

    Would love for others to chime in...

    As for The Wingmaster in question, it's likely everything the current Police model is, and with the flexitab addition would be totally in line. If I buy it I doubt I'll look back.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page